EEG Feedback Machine: Where can I get one?

[John-Forrest]

I hear so much talk about EEG feedback being good for persons with seizure problems. I've been wanting to get hold of one for years. Problem is, insurance won't cover this and visits to a technologist will add up to about the same cost as simply getting a EEG machine for oneself (an arrangement I would prefer).

My general net search has only revealed either cheap ones that promise to cure EVERYTHING, which don't sound very reputable to me, or more professional ones which cost a few thousand dollars (which I don't have).

Are there arrangments where persons with seizures pool money in to buy a machine for all of them? Or can they somehow be rented?

Or is there a good one, say a computerized one, that can be bought for a few hundred? I want to hear from people who have used them, not companies!

[Bernard]

There is more to the "professional/industrial" grade systems than just the machine and software. You need training to learn how to apply/use them properly. You need to be able to interpret the results (data output) from the sessions and make adjustments to the feedback protocol. I really would not recommend trying to use the NeuroCare/Brainmaster type systems at home on your own.

There is only one at home neurofeedback system that I am aware of - PlayAttention - but last I checked with them, it only measured the alpha brainwave spectrum, so I think it is not sufficient for helping the brain to control seizures (which usually involve the theta wave band too).

Stacy's latest QEEG showed strong abnormalities in all the measured wave bands (alpha, beta, delta, theta).

Problem is, insurance won't cover this and visits to a technologist will add up to about the same cost as simply getting a EEG machine for oneself (an arrangement I would prefer).

You might check with your local practitioners and see if they can work with your insurance company. I am aware that some have managed to get degrees of coverage by filing claims under more general (or related if appropriate) categories.

I have reached out to EEG Spectrum to try and get forum members a discount on neurofeedback training too. So far, only one practitioner has responded to the offer, but I think if you contacted EEG Spectrum (John Hollister is the current president) and asked about potential practitioners in your area, it might stir more interest on their part.

[John-Forrest]

Bernard,

I'm a pretty intelligent person and have a Masters Degree in Psychology (Psychology of Creativity, Goddard College). I feel confident I can train myself. I don't think we need to be so dependent on medical professionals. Sorry, I'm not with you on that one.

[Bernard]

Well, if you do get a professional system and train yourself, let us know how it goes!

[Zara]

I do know that there are some good programs used to monitor this stuff like Neuroprogrammer v2.0 amongst other applications out there. I also found out today that the one Neurofeedback specialist in the area is interested in maybe working with me which makes me soooooo happy. I have often thought of this alternative care as a means of trying to rid myself of my seizures and have been interested in at least trying it so to find out that the only person in the area capable of doing this is interested in working with me has me quite overjoyed indeed.


so for today!!!!

[kurt.othmer]

Bernard,

I'm a pretty intelligent person and have a Masters Degree in Psychology (Psychology of Creativity, Goddard College). I feel confident I can train myself. I don't think we need to be so dependent on medical professionals. Sorry, I'm not with you on that one.

I really have to agree with Bernard on this one. I work in Neurofeedback, and I strongly encourage you to find a professional who is trained, or if you already have a masters degree in Psychology simply get training yourself and learn how do to this. Put simply, the effects of neurofeedback have been shown in research to often out perform meds (search google for monastra adhd study as one example, or see eegresearch.com for more) and you wouldn't want to just go play with meds.

Sure there are some "light" systems that don't do much, but then, ... they don't do much.

Yes I'm biased, cause we teach professionals how to do this work, and sell equipment, but I am primarily interested in seeing this work getting recognition.

Many clinicians will allow you to switch to home use training after you have done enough sessions in the office to stabalize the training locations and protocol. We require a minimum of 20 sessions in our clinic before switching to remote use.

Kurt Othmer
EEG Info, Inc.

[John-Forrest]

I'm trying to say I cannot AFFORD to get that treatment, insurance doesn't cover it. I am good at figuring things out and feel confident I can learn to operate EEG feedback on my own, but prices for machines are out of sight for me. I make 15,000 a year working 27 hours a week at a place where they hire disabled people. I live in low income housing and haven't had a car (please don't give me a lecture about driving) in ten years. Get the picture?

Anyway, I did order a GSR machine (ThoughStream, $100), which has been interesting as a tool for observing my states of tension. I deliberately set it up at the office or public places that tend to stress me out, let it go down. (TRYING doesn't work, it's NOT TRYING and not being attached to results that works.) A mood ring (only a few bucks) can be helpful too.

I'm waiting for headgear game controllers to come down and be more developed to do EEG. Right now, I'm doing what I can.

Thanks anyway,
John

[kurt.othmer]

I completely hear you on the price. There is actually research out there that really surprised me about using GSR training (for those who don't know, that's Galvanic Skin Response -- or training down the moisture in your hands which relates to controlling stress). GSR training was actually demonstrated to bring down seizure activity. The big difference is that a great deal more GSR training was needed as compared to Neurofeedback to have an effect on seizures. But what it showed me is that learning to regulate your physiology better makes a difference in how your physiology works, whether you are getting there through GSR training or brain training. Whatever underlying principles of self regulation that are at work controlling the moisture in your hands, and the electrical activity in your brain, are also at work keeping your brain out of seizures. So you are on a good track.
Here's a link to some GSR research, or just search google:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...3e38f559a5f2ad

[bedolaga]

First of all: hello everybody!

I'm from Russia, my wife suffers from seizures, so treatment of epilepsy is my region of vivid interest, now

She suffers idiopathic generalized tonic-clonic seizures. so called "epilepsy on awakening".

Anyway, here's my contribution to the subject:

Here you'll find two full pdf GSR articles from sciencedirect:

[edited: removed, see below]

Yeah, my wife is training on GSR machine(exactly "ThoughtStream" , I've bought it through Amazon 6 months ago) every morning.

The main idea of GSR training for epileptics is to learn not to decrease GSR, as it used for mere relaxation, but oppositely: increase GSR level right before seizure onset.
This measure decreases level of CNS arousal.

But from my point of view, this method is good for seizures preceded by aura, not for primary generalized seizure.

You should feel your seizure's coming to cope with it by GSR manipulaton.

The main tool for our training now, is BrainMaster Atlantis II. Very powerful and low-cost unit with superb software.

For the last 2 months my wife increased level of SMR rhythm 1,5 times, and seizure frequency decreased 1,5 times the same time.

Kurt, I'm not fully agree with you, that GSR training is more time-consuming, than EEG-feedback. Experience of my wife tells me just the opposite. But, EEG conditioning has much more profound effect on paroxysmal activities, and targeted directly to synaptic plasticity precesses. But it takes much more time than GSR traing.

[Bernard]

Hi Bedolaga, welcome to the forum.

The main tool for our training now, is BrainMaster ...

My wife is also using a BrainMaster system currently, though I'm not sure if it is the Atlantis II or another model.

Your links (with http) did not work for me. They get redirected to the root - http://mihd.net/

[bedolaga]

Your links (with http) did not work for me. They get redirected to the root - h**p://mihd.net

Hi, Bernard!

Links work fine. Just find in the left upper corner of mihd page link named "Request Download Link" and just press it.
After that, you'll see in the right upper corner direct download link. Enjoy. Anyway, if you have other filehost system for free file sharing tell me and I'll upload there.


As for EEG conditioning. In the book "Symphony in the brain" was wriiten about some miraculous cases, when results was derived in a few weeks and months.

Actually, it is not typically for seizures disorders. A half of year and maybe more, up to 12 months to get some results, from my point of view.

[Bernard]

Anyway, if you have other filehost system for free file sharing tell me and I'll upload there.

Oh snap! I just realized that you were offering full articles from ScienceDirect. You should just offer a link to the ScienceDirect abstract for the article. We do not condone piracy here (distributing copyrighted works falls in this category).

As for EEG conditioning. In the book "Symphony in the brain" was wriiten about some miraculous cases, when results was derived in a few weeks and months.

One of those cases was Kurt's brother.

Actually, it is not typically for seizures disorders. A half of year and maybe more, up to 12 months to get some results, from my point of view.

It took almost 6 months for my wife to realize the full benefits of EEG neurofeedback the first time she used it.

[bedolaga]

One of those cases was Kurt's brother.

Yeah, his history tuched my heart deeply. He was very strong and high-spirited man.

[bedolaga]

Oh snap!

One wise man said once: "Knowledge is power".

I'm sure, that Sir Francis Bacon meant copyright abuse.

Anyway, you can learn about the GSR methods absolutely free and legally here:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20050137495.html

[Bernard]

Found one of the GSR articles on ScienceDirect:

Clinical efficacy of galvanic skin response biofeedback training in reducing seizures in adult epilepsy: a preliminary randomized controlled study

Is this the same one you were referencing Kurt? Your link didn't work for me (when I copied & pasted it into the address bar).

[bedolaga]

Is this the same one you were referencing Kurt?

Yes, this is Kurt's article. We can discuss it, if you like.

I mean neurophysioloigical mechanism under the GSR method.

Your link didn't work for me (when I copied & pasted it into the address bar).

As I see, I don't deserve yet to post links in my replies, so I avoid this obstacle by printing blank spaces between letters. So just delete spaces.

[Bernard]

As I see, I don't deserve yet to post links in my replies,

Sorry about that. unfortunately, it is a necessary restriction for all new members

so I avoid this obstacle by printing blank spaces between letters. So just delete spaces.

Yes, I know. When I fixed Kurt's link above, it still didn't work.

....

but it's working now... Either I goofed or ScienceDirect was having a server issue previously.

[kurt.othmer]

Thank you both for the kind words about my brother, and yes, it was a long road then, and is still often a long road now with cases as serious as my brothers.

I did not know that you could train GSR the opposite way right before a seizure... interesting. My model is that challenging the system in any way helps, this still fits the model, but is a new piece that I did not know. We often see this with EEG training, that one clinician can train one way, and another clinician can train another way, and still get results, it shows that it's about exercise.

Bernhard - my account says I still cannot post URLs, I was going to try to post that link again.

[bedolaga]

Hi, Kurt!

Yes, the point is paradoxical method to rise GSR before seizure onset. And to exercise this skill during interictal periods as measure of CNV (contingent negative variation) decreasing.

Authors write:

The GSR is an accessible and sensitive index of peripheral sympathetic nervous activity, reflecting peripheral autonomic change. Skin conductance increases with enhanced arousal level.
In a previous study in healthy subjects, we investigated the relationship between peripheral autonomic change and cortical excitation
indexed by the GSR and the contingent negative variation (CNV), respectively.
We demonstrated an inverse relationship between GSR and CNV amplitude, such that increases in peripheral sympathetic activity were associated with reductions in this EEG index ofcortical neural excitation.
A pilot study of GSR biofeedback in three patients with drug-resistant epilepsy revealed a remarkable reduction in seizure frequency in two of three patients.
Based on these findings, we designed this study to examine whether GSR biofeedback treatment of patients, aimed at increasing tonic levels of peripheral sympathetic arousal, would lead to seizure reduction.
The present clinical investigation was undertaken with 18 patients with drug-refractory epilepsy.

Bold sentence in above quotation is a key to the method.


Best regards,

Alexei

[John-Forrest]

I am a bit confused here: Does increase in GSR mean heightened stress (sweaty palms) or vice-versa (dry palms)? Would that imply increased stress coincides with slower EEG? Please clarify.