Original group messages regarding gluten and glutamate

[Zoe]

Below are the messages regarding gluten and glutamate we carried over from the group. We won't post to this thread anymore but to the next one on glutamate.

Zoe,
I'm currently on the GARD. I have had a lot of success in that, when I adhere to the diet, I have fewer seizures. Is this going to be different than the GARD group?

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I am going to put myself on this. I want to feel better overall, and I have heard people report that weight came off easily. I have a few more products to remove from the kitchen and so I am announcing that I am going to do that this week. I will admit I have been buying spelt bread, and it is not gluten free. I am going to go find another bread recipe that is enjoyed by many in the yahoo GFCFkids group. I will post it in the recipe section.

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Robin,
Be sure and plan before you go on the diet, so you aren't tempted to cheat. I am back on the diet again and am feeling better, not so easily frustrated or prone to anger and racing thoughts. I expect you'll find you rest better too. The effects of chronic inflammation can be subtle, we may think its our attitude but it could be our emotional control affected by chronic inflammation.
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Hi Molly,

If the diet is helping, why change it? I just checked DogtorJ's site and the diet says to avoid gluten. So you should already be on a gluten free diet to be in line with the G.A.R.D. diet.
There may be some confusion as the diet talks about glut[i]mate and glut[a]mate not the same things. I'll post more on this later. Off the cuff, I'm concerned about what he wrote concerning beans as a source of glutamate and am checking this out too and will post more about this.
The gluten free diet eliminates gluten containing foods altogether. So, you should be able to combine the two with no problem. Just arrange your gluten free diet to include the foods eliminated on the GARD diet. What do you think?
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Hi Folks,
Below are links to two very good reads on gluten sensitivity. Dr. Fine has patented some stool tests for gluten sensivity that can be obtained without a doctor's prescription. There's a lot of good information on his web site too.
I'm extremely impressed with Dr. Lewey as well as Dr. Fine. They seem to be way ahead of the others in understanding how widespread the effects of gluten sensitivity can be. I'm really interested in what your thoughts are about them and their articles.


1. Gluten Sensitivity: A Gastroenterologist's Personal Journey Down ...
Gluten Sensitivity: A Gastroenterologist's Personal Journey Down the Gluten Rabbit Hole by Dr. Scot Lewey. This article appeared in the Winter 2007 edition ...
http://www.celiac.com/articles/1101/...wey/Page1.html


1. A clinical laboratory serving the medical community and the public ...
Early Diagnosis Of Gluten Sensitivity: Before the Villi are Gone. Transcript of a talk given by Kenneth Fine, M.D. to the Greater Louisville Celiac Sprue ...
https://www.enterolab.com/StaticPage...yDiagnosis.htm

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Zoe,
I find that my biggest problem is soy, not limited to msg. At some point, could you elaborate on the difference between glutimate and glutamate as I have some confusion there too.
Leaving breads and such alone are not really too challenging for me; I've never been a bread/cereal eater per se. When I eat cereal, I am careful to eat oatmeal which is not problematic for me, but I realize that there are those who would have problems doing that.
I think the biggest misunderstanding in this whole gluten intolerance thing is that it is limited to grains. It's more than that, if I understand it correctly.

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I agree with you about grains not being the whole story with sensitivity. One thing that is turning up is that the long term untreated gluten sensitivity can lead to problems with beaking down fatty acids, leading to a deficiency in them. What all the implications are, I don't know yet, and am looking this up too.
I'm thinking the glutamate in beans is not in the same form as the glutamate that is neurotoxic. Glutamate in the diet converts to glutamine, a very important amino acid that is not toxic. That's why I'm wondering about the glutamate in beans. If I can't find the information, I will email DogtorJ and ask him.
Fortunately, I am not having a problem with soy, though a it is a problem for a lot of folks who are gluten sensitive. Some of the food intolerances may be due to injury and can be overcome when they've been removed from the diet for a while. Isn't this the approach used in the GARD diet? Ha! I just saw a typo in my last post to you. I meant to say that in combining the two diets, you could just exclude from the gluten free diet those foods that are removed in the GARD diet.
I'm really curious now about the difference between glutimate and glutamate and will go look it up.
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Well, so far CWE showed up in my search and it looks like glutimate is a misspelling of glutamate.Hmmm...more to follow.
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Yea, it's looking like glutimate is a typo, very common too. It is turning up in MSG links and MSG is MS-glutamate. Glad I didn't ask a scientist! If any such critter as glutimate turns up I'll post it. Otherwise, off to more searching on glutamate.

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anyone can ya help me!!! this may not be the correct place to ask this, but here it goes.
I have stoped eating bread all together, question is, what products may have breads in them that i would want to stay away from.? I want to slowly start on a diet, but neurologist said since my medcine got my body out of wack i start slow, so i started cutting bread, next may be cheese not to sure. Just found out my chosleterl level is high also.

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Hi Nana,
You can get a lot of information on the celiac forum:
http:www.celiac.com
Can you get in to see a nutritional counselor? Your doc should be able to refer you to one or a registered dietician who can help you plan your diet.

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Zoe,
Somewhere along the way, Robin posted a site that had a chart showing the glutamate levels of lots of different foods. I printed it off and have it in my nutritional notebook. Sorry. I don't have the site saved or written down somewhere. Robin, do you know what I'm talking about?

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I'd like to see the list. Also, I wrote a note to Mark Messina, PhD, who did research on soy for the NIH. I asked him if the glutamate in food, like beans is in the same form and as toxic as the glutamate in MSG and processed soy foods. Robin, if you see this can you repost your information on glutamate?
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The glutamate mystery deepens. Here's a link to the International Food Council's page on glutamate:
http://www.ific.org/publications/brochures/msgbroch.cfm
According to the article, the glutamate in food is the same glutamate as in MSG. Yet, other places are talking about two forms of glutamate, bound (to another molecule) and free, each acting differently in the body. Glutamate is a necessary nutrient. If all glutamate were toxic, why doesn't everyone with seizures react to the many foods high in glutamate. I do not have a good understanding of this and am looking for more information.
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This abstract is rather technical but does explain some aspects of glutamate toxicity. The question now is, do we metabolize the glutamate in food differently than the glutamate in processed foods, like MSG. Feedback?
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1: Neurochem Int. 2006 May-Jun;48(6-7):650-6. Epub 2006 Feb 28.

Short-term fasting, seizure control and brain amino acid metabolism.

Yudkoff M, Daikhin Y, Nissim I, Horyn O, Luhovyy B, Lazarow A, Nissim I.

Department of Pediatrics, Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, University of
Pennsylvania School of Medicine, 19104, USA. yudkoff@email.chop.edu

The ketogenic diet is an effective treatment for seizures, but the mechanism of
action is unknown. It is uncertain whether the anti-epileptic effect presupposes
ketosis, or whether the restriction of calories and/or carbohydrate might be
sufficient. We found that a relatively brief (24 h) period of low glucose and low
calorie intake significantly attenuated the severity of seizures in young
Sprague-Dawley rats (50-70 gms) in whom convulsions were induced by
administration of pentylenetetrazole (PTZ). The blood glucose concentration was
lower in animals that received less dietary glucose, but the brain glucose level
did not differ from control blood [3-OH-butyrate] tended to be higher in blood,
but not in brain, of animals on a low-glucose intake. The concentration in brain
of glutamine increased and that of alanine declined significantly with
low-glucose intake. The blood alanine level fell more than that of brain alanine,
resulting in a marked increase ( approximately 50%) in the brain:blood ratio for
alanine. In contrast, the brain:blood ratio for leucine declined by about 35% in
the low-glucose group. When animals received [1-(13)C]glucose, a metabolic
precursor of alanine, the appearance of (13)C in alanine and glutamine increased
significantly relative to control. The brain:blood ratio for [(13)C]alanine
exceeded 1, indicating that the alanine must have been formed in brain and not
transported from blood. The elevated brain(alanine):blood(alanine) could mean
that a component of the anti-epileptic effect of low carbohydrate intake is
release of alanine from brain-to-blood, in the process abetting the disposal of
glutamate, excess levels of which in the synaptic cleft would contribute to the
development of seizures.


PMID: 16510212 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Related Links

Metabolism of brain amino acids following pentylenetetrazole treatment. [Epilepsy
Res. 2003] PMID:12576176

Seizure resistance is dependent upon age and calorie restriction in rats fed a
ketogenic diet. [Epilepsy Res. 1999] PMID:10232791

A ketogenic diet has different effects upon seizures induced by maximal
electroshock and by pentylenetetrazole infusion. [Epilepsy Res. 2000]
PMID:10642038

Neuronal-glial interactions in rats fed a ketogenic diet. [Neurochem Int. 2006]
PMID:16542760

Ketogenic diet, brain glutamate metabolism and seizure control. [Prostaglandins
Leukot Essent Fatty Acids. 2004] PMID:14769486

[Zoe]

zoe,
the site that i was finally able to find for the list that i have is www.truthinlabeling.com. The name of the list is "hidden sources of processed free glutamic acid(msg)". Another site is www.msgtruth.com.

I believe the first is the list i was thinking about that robin may have posted.

I don't know that i fully understand the link between glutamate and msg. I'm not sure these links belong here. Sorry if they don't. Msg is just such a big deal for me.
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zoe,
i also see a thread that i bookmarked here at this site:http://www.coping-with-epilepsy.com/...ns-coping-670/. This is a very long, very involved 2 page posting from back in 2006 that deals primarily with msg. Sorry. I know it's not the focus of this group.
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well zoe,
i was going to give you a link that is in dogtor j's site that gives the glutamate/aspartate levels of every food imaginable and found that at this time, it's not a good link. I emailed dogtor j with that info; he's extremely busy but i'll let you know the outcome of this.

Let me share some of my experience with glutamate/free glutamic acid(also known as msg). Beef is high in glutamate; i say that based on a chart i have, and the link i was going to give you confirms that. Everytime i make oven roast beef with carrots and potatoes, i have a seizure. I admit that until i realized this pattern, i was eating a substantial amount of the roast beef. I don't use any seasonings on it; it bastes in its own juices. Last weekend, i had a steak(9oz)for dinner. Had a seizure big time! I normally am not a big beef eater, so this fact does not cramp my style.

I chuckle now when i think that last year i started eating tofu, with the goal of being healthy(so many vegetarian dishes have tofu in them)and to save money(it really is a cheap source of protein). Of course, according to the same link i can't access, anything soy-based is high in glutamate. Ah, what i've done with an eye to being healthy!
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zoe,
after an early start this morning and some much needed caffeine, i can give you the following link that gives a list of common foods and their glutamate/aspartate amounts: www.whfoods.com/foodstoc.php.
What you do when you choose a food, choose its nutritional profile; the website allows you to choose an advanced profile which, after much scrolling, yields the glutamate/aspartate amounts.
Imho, the other link i used was better; it was more complete. I swear it listed every food known to man, or at least known to me.
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zoe,
i have the link i wanted you to see for listing every food with all its nutritional aspects: www.foodcomp.dk/v7/fcdb_alphlist.asp
this is an update on the link listed on dogtorj's website.

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hi everyone! My name is sarah and i'm currently controlling my son's seizure disorder through diet and nutrition. Gluten is just one of the many things we eliminated from our dinner table (other items include processed foods, msgs and other excitotoxins, and animal products). I joined this group hoping to learn more and encourage others as well.

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hi lf! Welcome to this group! We are just setting up here so any questions or contributions are welcome too. I benefitted from the scd diet as well as gf. Do you want to share a little about your son? How did you come to choose diet as a treatment?
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molly, thanks for all these links and information, even the one on msg. The overall focus is on diet and seizure disorders. We're just starting out with a focus on gluten. I hope we'll be getting into the other diets later, gard, atkins, keto, and some others.
I still have questions about the dangers of glutamate in foods vs in processed food, like is it converted faster in processed foods to the form that is toxic to the nervous system? Is it a question of the concentration of glutamic acid in food vs that in processed foods? I'm still searching on this. I'm sorry dogtorj is so busy, was hoping he might help clarify this.
(p.s) have you googled on "caffeine" "seizure threshold"?

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zoe,
normally i have one cup of green tea in the morning and then one cup of camomille tea in the afternoon. To see why i had more this morning, look at my post over in the padded room.

I haven't found anything that talks about glutamic acid in regular foods vs highly processed foods.

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thanks for the welcome, zoe! My son (elijah) is 7 years old. He has mild cerebral palsy and then was diagnosed with epilepsy after a couple seizure episodes (complex partials) in spring of 2007. At that time i had been researching the benefits of nutrition as preventative health for our family. His diagnosis just kick-started my findings into high gear and i was determined to find a healthy way to control the seizures without putting him on daily medication with all sorts of side-effects. Nutrition worked and he was seizure free for 19 months. While out of town for new year's, i allowed him to eat foods that we had been restricting. He had a horrible episode of seizure clusters on january 2nd of this year. This showed me that the nutritional approach had been working and that i must just stick to it. We're back on board with the diet and also planning to start craniosacral therapy on the 26th of this month.

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hi sarah,
you must have panicked when elijah started having seizures again! It's a good thing you recognized there was a diet connection for him and hope it will be straightened out quickly.
Would he be able to handle something like breath training? Are you familiar with this as an approach to learning to stop seizures on one's own? It might be another option for him. Are you getting all the diet information that you need? Keep us up to date on how he is doing and please post more details about his diet.
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hi sarah,
you must have panicked when elija started having seizures again! I hope he is ok now. Are you getting all the diet information you need? Please keep us posted on how he is doing and on the diet you are using.
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hi molly,
i thought you meant caffeine as in coffee. It took me years to realize my heavy coffee drinking was one of my major seizure triggers-slow learner on that score! I use some green tea now also, but cannot tolerate much. Cammomile was one of the first plants i found useful for my seizures many many years ago. I add a very few leaves from hops to it which helps me relax and sleep better at night.
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molly and others,

the quote below is from an article on glutamate on truthinlabeling.org's web page [thanks molly!] i read the whole thing and urge you to read it also. What i get from it is that the glutamate in food is not the same as the glutamate added to food. The article makes very clear that it is the glutamate that is made outside the body, msg, that is in a form that is neurotoxic. What's your take on this article? I'm going to check it out further still.

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"what is glutamic acid (glutamate)?

Glutamic acid is an amino acid found in abundance in both plant and animal protein. In humans it is a non-essential amino acid, i.e., the body is capable of producing its own glutamic acid, and is not dependent upon getting glutamic acid from ingested food.


Technically, glutamate is the salt of glutamic acid. Monosodium glutamate and monopotassium glutamate are salts of glutamic acid.


What is msg?

Outside of the body, glutamic acid is produced commercially in food manufacturing and chemical plants. It's use in food began in the early 1900s as a component of a flavor enhancer called "monosodium glutamate." unfortunately, any glutamic acid that is produced as an individual amino acid outside of the body for use in food, drugs, dietary supplements, cosmetics, personal care products, fertilizers, or other, can cause or exacerbate brain lesions, neuroendocrine disorders, learning disabilities, adverse reactions, neurodegenerative disease and more in animals -- including humans. Many people who realize that that glutamic acid that is produced commercially in food manufacturing and chemical plants places humans at risk refer to all commercially produced glutamic acid as "msg."

link to full article:

http://www.truthinlabeling.org/iii.what%20is%20msg.html

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it was scary when he started seizing again. We were able to immediately connect it with diet (being off his normal sleep routine probably didn't help either). He might possibly be able to handle breath training. That's something we will have to work on. I feel that i have all the diet information i need right at my fingertips. We've proven that this works for him as long as we stick with it. The best part is that he isn't singled out. The entire family eats the same foods. I make everything from scratch. Our diet is plant based (lots of fruits, veggies, nuts, and seeds). We eliminated all animal products (meat & dairy). I don't buy anything in a can, jar, or box. The only thing i purchase in a bag is fresh produce or frozen fruits and veggies that have zero preservatives or additives. I cleaned out my spice cabinet and removed all excitotoxins. Since doing this, we've all been healthier (no more flues, viruses, or infections). We've released excess weight. Both husband and i were obese, but not anymore. My husband's blood pressure lowered without meds. My hormonal issues straightened out. Elijah also has mild cerebral palsy that at one time slowed him down, but his energy levels increased after the diet change as well as his seizures stopping (until he got off his diet). I could go on and on about the benefits we've all seen over the last 19 months. I know nutrition works.

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