vaccines and epilepsy

[epileric]

I don't see anything fishy.

Unless of course you're trying to imply that because someone who worked on one of the studies that discredited Andrew Wakefield (who started the hoax re. vaccinations & autism) stole money & now can't be believed as a scientist?

If that's the case, then I don't see how a scientist trying to steal money means that the experiments conducted were null & void. I do agree that he should be punished but there are numerous reasons why the scientific work still stands.

First of all, numerous other studies done by other people in other countries like the Immunization Studies Program, Center for Health Studies Group Health Cooperative or the Department of Paediatric Immunology, Wilhelmina Children's Hospital, University Medical Centre Utrecht that came to the same conclusion.

Secondly The person caught stealing was neither the primary author nor investigator for the study which basically makes him a lab tech with minimal influence on the results. There were 7 other authors to check & double check everything.

Thirdly, Age of Autism is a notorious anti-vaccination site that often use such ad hominem attacks like this one, focusing on one thing that has nothing to do with the issue at hand but trying to imply it does. Time after time they keep trying to discredit scientific studies that have been proven over & over. One well respected neurologist even referred to that site as "The Age of Autism Witch Hunt".

I want to point out that Age of Autism, the anti-vaccine propaganda blog of Generation Rescue, has really gone over the top in their witch hunt against anyone who dares try to educate the public about vaccines and correct the constant flow of misinformation that comes from the anti-vaccine ideologues. Their chosen method of attack is alleged conflicts of interest – and it is truly a witch hunt.

[RobinN]

hmmmm........

http://vactruth.com/2011/07/22/murdochs-vaccine-world/

.........

Now here just may be the crux to this entire Wakefield-Murdoch-Vaccine entanglement.

Newton points out that

In opening up the issue mitochrondrial dysfunction and urging a shift back to a single measles vaccine (an earlier vaccine), Wakefield may have stumbled onto something explosive. For the MMR vaccine appears to be the third generation of vaccines, what are called DNA vaccines. They involve shooting genetically engineered material into the body, often using gene guns that were used into the genetic engineering of seeds, in order to achieve DNA “uptake.” …

And what is meant by DNA uptake? Does it mean as it sounds, that genetically engineered material is taken up by the DNA of those being injected with it? And if so, does that mean that these vaccines are genetically altering (or “engineering”) those receiving the vaccines?

Is it possible that the mitochrondrial dysfunction seen in autistic children is a result of their DNA having been compromised? The new DNA vaccines derive from failed gene therapy. Are the new DNA vaccines a continuation of experiments in genetic engineering, being conducted on millions of children?

It should be noted that 23 of the new DNA vaccines have been linked to autism. Can they, in effect, be the real ‘smoking gun’ cause of autism?

Now here’s where all the above ties up into a huge red bow: Rupert Murdoch has hefty financial interests and ties to the pharmaceutical industry, international banking connections, and stock market power brokers who hold the world’s financial interests in their ‘covetous’ hands. Newton says that Members of this group, along with George Soros-directed assets, virtually monopolized the genetics industry during the 1990s, culminating in the corporate privatization of the Human Genome Project. Of course, everyone knows that George Soros is a backer of U.S. President Barack Obama’s agenda.

Topping off all this is the fact that Rupert Murdoch’s son, James—heir apparent, according to Newton, oversees GlaxoSmithKline, another major H1N1 vaccine maker. Many more of Rupert Murdoch’s business associates sit as members of the boards of directors of Merck & Company; Kolberg, Kravitz, Robertz & Company (KKR); and even one of KKR’s top echelon personnel was one of the founders of the Coalition to Advance Healthcare Reform (CAHR) now known as “ObamaCare.”

It sounds like Rupert Murdoch is akin to an octopus with tentacles far reaching and some very deeply, especially in pharmaceuticals and the global media, i.e., radio, television, newspapers, and other print media. Let’s see how far the inquiry goes into the British cell hacking fiasco and if it will cross the pond into the United States. If what we are hearing about what went on at his newspapers multiplies, we can only imagine what has been going on behind closed doors in the world of pharmaceuticals.

One indication of how nasty the vaccine agenda is becoming is the sad article about

131 Children vaccinated at gunpoint in Nsanje [Africa]

http://www.malawivoice.com/latest-ne...int-in-nsanje/

What’s going on that everyone has to be vaccinated—even at gunpoint? If I were on the Parliament’s panel questioning the Messrs. Murdoch, I would ask them that question.

[Endless]

Put on your science hats, everybody. For those of you who love facts and are willing to think hard and read reference material to understand them, this is going to be a wild ride.

On the major points, in the posts below:

1. The MMR vaccine is a live vaccine, with a weakened strain of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella. It does, indeed, use gene splicing as the technique for manufacturing. The same technique is used for insulin (including the type used for juvenile diabetes) as well as many other drugs. None of them have been linked to autism. The reason for gene splicing is twofold. One is increased production so there is enough of the vaccines available worldwide . The second is to develop vaccines that still cause immunity but lack the infectious sequences. In other words, to develop a safer vaccine – one that can’t make you sick with the disease. http://library.thinkquest.org/19037/therapy2.html[*]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_engineering


2)

It should be noted that 23 of the new DNA vaccines have been linked to autism. Can they, in effect, be the real ‘smoking gun’ cause of autism?

Please ask the author to name them. Also please name the scientific reference for the list of vaccines, plus the article for the peer review journal that the DNA vaccines cause autism. This will be difficult because they don’t exist. Studies by legitimate scientists using accepted scientific methods and procedures say there is no link. (By the way, MMR measles isn't a DNA vaccine, it's an RNA vaccine. That makes his statement false right off the bat.)

3. As for the Rupert Murdoch conspiracy theory. It is irrelevant. Brian Deer initially uncovered the fraudulent research and reported on it. It was then investigated by objective third parties in government, the scientific community, and in peer review journals. They found even more damning facts than Brian Deer did. As a result of the findings, the Lancet where Wakefield published his study retracted the study and banned it from public record. Wakefield’s co-authors retracted their findings associated with the study. Wakefield and one of his colleagues were investigated by the medical board and found guilty of gross professional misconduct and lost their licenses to practice medicine.

John Walker-Smith, a coauthor of Wakefield's report and a supporter of the MMR vaccine, wrote in 2002 that epidemiology has shown that MMR is safe in most children, but observed that epidemiology is a blunt tool and studies can miss at-risk groups that have a real link between MMR and autism. However, if a rare subtype of autism were reliably identified by clinical or pathological characteristics, epidemiological research could address the question whether MMR causes that autism subtype. There is no scientific evidence that MMR causes damage to the infant immune system, and there is much evidence to the contrary.

In 2001, Berelowitz, one of the co-authors of the paper, said "I am certainly not aware of any convincing evidence for the hypothesis of a link between MMR and autism".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vac...er_controversy

The following organizations independantly investigated Wakefield’s research and found misconduct:
The Lancet (peer review journal), The General Medical Council (who found him guilty of fourty counts of serious professional misconduct), The House of Commons, the British Medical Journal.

4. As for the incident in Malawi, the Mutharika regime is well known for it’s intolerance of the people of Malawi, and uses violence to reach its objectives. It’s why citizens are now protesting against the government, with many of them being killed for it. The actions of the Nsanje authorities have nothing to do with the vaccination issue. It has to do with the oppression of the Malawian people. The government would use violence and oppression wherever its citizens refuse to obey - it doesn't matter if it's a gun control law or vaccines. Equally brutal enforcement.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/23/wo.../23malawi.html

Note from Me: If you have traveled to third world countries where they have not been educated that a needle can’t kill you, the people are terrified of any kind of vaccine, shot, IV, etc. They naturally decline them until they understand what they are. Just like you or I wouldn’t do a surgery we’d never heard of until we completely understood it.

If all this isn’t enough…

A study of children with gastrointestinal disturbances found no difference between those with ASD and those without, when it comes to the presence of measles virus RNA in the bowel; it also found that gastrointestinal symptoms and the onset of autism were unrelated in time to the administration of MMR vaccine.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:...l.pone.0003140

The way the PCR (Polymerase Chain Reaction) process that was conducted by Wakefield was fatally flawed, resulting in contamination. This PCR data was the absolute foundation of his study. It is scientifically impossible for him to have detected the RNA he claimed to have found.

The assay used was not specific for measles and it was not properly carried out.’ The positive results were positive for DNA – confirming contamination, because ‘if it’s DNA it can’t be measles’ (measles is an RNA virus).

http://spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/3562/
As a result of fraudulent research and professional misconduct, The General Medical Council (GMC) revoked Wakefield’s license to practice medicine, as they did for one of his co-authors. The GMC found Wakefield guilty of 40 charges.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8695267.stm

The Canadian Paediatric Society, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences, and the UK National Health Service all found that there is no evidence of a link between the MMR vaccine and autism.

I could go on and on with actual scientific studies, facts, official investigations, proof of data tampering, etc., that show wakefield's results are inaccurate, and of his gross misconduct. But what's the point? People who want to believe vaccines are bad will continue to think they are bad and will not vaccinate their children, no matter what the medical and scientific communities say. And people who think vaccines are necessary to protect the lives of their children will continue to think that and will vaccinate their children, and themselves.

We are debating something that we'll just have to agree to disagree. Otherwise it's beating a dead horse.

[RobinN]

Endless.. I am not trying to debate anything. I am only putting information here for people to decide for themselves.

I don't have the head to read your post tonight... I will attempt it tomorrow.

But this caught my eye:

A study of children with gastrointestinal disturbances found no difference between those with ASD and those without, when it comes to the presence of measles virus RNA in the bowel; it also found that gastrointestinal symptoms and the onset of autism were unrelated in time to the administration of MMR vaccine.

Tell this to the parents (I dont' buy it, because there is some reason that these kids are in pain, and laying on the edge of the couch. Many many videos of children in the same poses - my son has had GI distress. When it is addressed many of their symptoms disappear) ... and I think we have a more complex issue than we even understand with contemporary research.

I have been having some interesting dialog with Dogtor J and I hope he has time to write up his latest findings soon. It should be interesting.

[epileric]

Endless.. I am not trying to debate anything. I am only putting information here for people to decide for themselves.

But Robin, all that you've posted has been shown to be untrue. That is not help with extra information, that is just more diversion from what has been proven. Personally I would say it's a Manufactroversy. The website you linked to even has a warning not to take their medical claims as medical advice

Nothing here is intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease

Also

By using the information presented on this website, you agree to take FULL responsibility for yourself. Self-help requires intelligence, common sense, and the ability to take responsibility for your own actions

That alone says a lot about their own confidence in themselves. Disclaimer

Also, the article seems to be all over the place without really focusing or confronting any point. I know this as a straw man

Tell this to the parents (I dont' buy it, because there is some reason that these kids are in pain, and laying on the edge of the couch. Many many videos of children in the same poses - my son has had GI distress. When it is addressed many of their symptoms disappear) ... and I think we have a more complex issue than we even understand with contemporary research.

As much as I feel for anyone that has to see their children go through so much pain & go through so much pain themselves, I would expect that the parents with such a close tie to the children and in such an emotional state are likely to be the least objective of observers. To bring them into an argument is like trying to base the discussion on emotion rather than fact, when objectivity is one of the main requirements to define an accurate conclusion.

[hootie]

And before the docs (or usually the nurses) give your child the vaccines that they recommend, they make the parent/guardian sign that the doc is not responsibe for any adverse effects...

it's called CYA!!!

It seems to me that the docs don't want to take any responsibility for the adverse effects that CAN occur. For sure the vaccine companies don't have to.

Too bad it is the parents that end up dealing with the consequences of vaccines. They trust the medically educated doctors who listen to the vaccine makers (who make the profit but have no accountability for their product)!

[DayDreamer]

My father is very similar to spock from the tv show of star treck. I assume had he been born in the current decade he would have been diagnosed with autism as his grandson is. Autism comes in varying degrees. Before we know what its cause is we have to understand the brain better.
I would choose to have autism, as I most likely do, rather than polio, smallpox, cholera, bubonic plague, rabies, and many more horrible things still out there. (Even though I am not fully in favor of the idea that vaccines cause autism)
Look at what vaccines prevent and what vaccines might cause if anything at all and make your choice.

[hootie]

High functioning autism is way different than the other end of the spectrum. One with high functioning autism may be a little quirky but can live alone, hold a job, etc. One in the mid to low range will most likely need assistance throughout his/her lifetime (at considerable cost to the provider of the care), not able to have a job, a spouse or even communicate in one form or another.

I don't think you have been around a child in pain (as Robin has described) and see how these children suffer only to have multiple docs avoid treatment because they think the kids are not sick but only "act in pain because they are expressing autistic behavior". Because the parents are persistent they finally find a doc that will pursue medical diagnosis...only to find cancer or an inflamed intestinal tract due to the measles virus (that is from the measles vaccine). I don't think you would prefer this type of autism if you lived it!!! Kids on this end of the spectrum suffer greatly...they can not express what is hurting, they have self-injurious behavior (biting oneself, head banging) due to the pain, they can not sleep, etc. Be careful what you wish for...

A person with the diseases mentioned may have them and still come out and be able to function at near normal, if not 100%.

[epileric]

Even what you describe, hootie is better than polio, smallpox, cholera, bubonic plague, or rabies since the survival rates are much higher.

[hootie]

Survival in that state is not living...it is HELL!

Obviously you have not see a child suffering that way...and the meds do not always take away the pain (and cause other symptoms that need to be dealt with).

Death rate is 100 % for all no matter what the cause.

[epileric]

Death rate is 100 % for all no matter what the cause.

Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing... here's the definition of death. I do know someone whose child has full autism and I feel bad you perceive your child to be good as dead.

[hootie]

I don't know why you would think that I perceive my child as dead. I was not even speaking of my child in any context above. Too bad you had that thought...just because he is autistic does not mean I think less of him or any child with autism, or that they should be dead. I just think it is a shame on many doctors that ignore the medical suffering that many kids with autism have to endure due to their lack of understanding/compassion. No sure why you tend to look at me in a negative manner.

I was just saying that all people will die. It is unavoidable... Vaccines or no vaccines, people will die. Too bad vaccines cause so much suffering that could be avoidable. I'm sure you don't agree that vaccines cause problems. I understand that. Your opinion is your opinion.

[DayDreamer]

As I said autism comes in varying degrees. My fathers grandson definitely has autism of a much more severe kind. I am curious with the new fad if my father and myself would have been diagnosed with it. Aspbergers is not really defined as autism.
It is interesting to see the way people with autism are viewed by those here. Possibly the same as people with epilepsy.
Autism is a change of the "normal" functioning of your brain which is not contagious as most of the things that vaccines prevent are and it doesn't kill you. Up to ten percent have it now. Vaccines were used in this country in the same amount for three generations. Why has autism just started?
Whatever the cause, certain vaccines I would choose over the possibility of autism. Maybe not a flu vaccine.

[Endless]

They have found a few reasons autism rates are going up, supported by data and research. The one I keep bringing up is that people are having children later and later in life these days. I think it's great that people later in life have the option to have children, but it does come with risks and consequences.

THe increasing age of fathers at the time of the baby's birth is rather stunning. This is for Canada, but you get the idea:

Average age of fathers on the rise
41.6 — The average age of fathers in 2006.
39.8 — The average age of fathers in 1995.
29.1 — The average age of fathers at the time of their entry into fatherhood in 2006.
27.8 — The average age of fathers at the time of their entry into fatherhood in 1995.

http://www42.statcan.gc.ca/smr08/201...7_2011-eng.htm

A study recently published in the Archives of General Psychiatry concludes that the offspring of older fathers have a significantly increased risk of autism. The team of UK and US researchers said that children born to men over 40 had a six times higher risk than those born to men under 30. They also said the study was further proof men also had "biological clocks".

The mother's age did not appear to influence the chances a child would have autism, although previous studies into this have produced mixed results.

Rare birth disorders, schizophrenia & bipolar
The incidences of certain rare birth disorders, such as Dwarfism, or achondroplasia (a genetic disorder that affects bone growth and is the most common growth-related birth defect. It occurs in about one in every 25,000 births, affects all races, both males and females and limits their growth to about four feet), are more common amongst births to older fathers. Some of these defects, thought to be new mutations, are only detectable later in life, e.g. schizophrenia.

Researchers at Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons found that men aged 50 or over are three times more likely to father a child with schizophrenia compared to men of 25 or under, and men aged between 45 and 49 are twice as likely to have a child with the illness. The researchers estimated that as many as one in four cases of schizophrenia may be caused by the father being old.

The study, published in the Archives of General Psychiatry, looked at records of almost 88,000 people born in Jerusalem between 1964 and 1976, and compared them to data from the Israel Psychiatric Register (part of the Israeli Ministry of Health).

Apert syndrome, which afflicts one in every 70,000 children who are born with fused bones in their heads, hands, and feet, is also linked to the father's age. Men in their 50s and 60s are 10 times as likely to carry and pass along the mutation as men under 30.

In a study carried out by the Karolinska Institute in Sweden, it was noted that the older an individual's father, the more likely he or she was to have bipolar disorder. Children of men 55 years and older were 1.37 times more likely to go on to be diagnosed with bipolar disorder than those of men aged 20 to 24...

http://www.mothers35plus.co.uk/older-fathers.htm

http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/con...hort/65/9/1034

The age of the father and autism are very strongly correlated. It helps explain at least part of the upward autism trend in the developed world. It's one thing that is scientifically proven to be a factor, and where parents have choices and control.

[hootie]

Daydreamer--some people who are autistic can get darn near "recovered" with antiviral thearapy, food allergen avoidence, and a few other changes to their environment. See NIDS and Dr. Goldberg for more information. Maybe it is contagious for some (most likely mother to child). Some people with chronic fatigue also respond highly to this therapy. Some of the kids with seizures that have tried this NIDS approach have had their seizures go away. One more thing...vaccines have been around for generations...but not at the amount that are being given at present time. At what point is it too much for the developing body to handle...?

Endless--I don't argue with you on this. I'm sure the longer we are exposed to all the toxins in this world, the more the egg and sperm are likely to become sub-optimal due to this constant exposure. Some people can more readily deal with the toxins than others. Kids with autism are more likely to be born in families with autoimmune issues. Many times, autoimmune issues can be cleared up or lessened with "detoxification"...people with autism can also benefit from detoxification if this is what has caused their autism.

[DayDreamer]

From peoples belief in current hypotheses, I would say that scientific medicine has become a religion to many. amen(so be it)