Do you think driving laws are fair with regards to epilepsy?

[Bernard]

Hi Katy, welcome to the forum.

Thanks for sharing your story. Sometimes it's really hard to balance those risk/reward equations when you don't fully grasp the risks.

Do you think things might have been different if you didn't have the VNS?

[Katy]

I think the VNS system was a disaster for me personally. It has really damaged my vocal cords and took away my safety net. The worst accident I had probably would not have occurred had I not had the VNS system. I could usually tell my husband about an oncoming seizure, but could not after the VNS. So, I was cooking in the kitchen with him in the next room and had a seizure. I stuck my hand and arm in a frying pan for 3-5 minutes. I have severe burns on my hand from that seizure. Had I not had the VNS, I would have warned my husband and he would have gotten me out of harms way.

But, I was still a walking time bomb despite the VNS system. Thinking about a busy intersection, there is often no way of getting out of harms way in a minute, which was about how long my warning was. Also, my body tending to always do what the last rational thought was. In my accident, the last rational thought was, "you need to get to class--go straight to school without getting in an accident." Remind you--this thought was a split second thought--but the last one. So, my body interpreted this message as "put the pedal to the metal and drive a straight path to school." That was what I did, but at 120 mph.

I will never be an advocate for epileptics driving. You are tempting fate when you choose to sit behind a wheel when you cannot control your seizures.

I had several accidents with epilepsy--my car accident not even the worst. I just wish that I could lead by example of how NOT to do something. So, if anything, learn from my mistake and DON'T DRIVE if you have seizures!!!

[MacDawg37]

The examples given by brain was excellent and right on.

If the states took action and revoked all those peoples drivers liscense on that list of brains, then maybe this country would start to fund public transportation more effectively, and install a system that is not such a pain to use. for example, taxie cab prices would plumet with the added revenues. But the states would all have to make a clean sweep of all those listed.

Either that or treat all fairly.

[todub]

I am personally pist off about losing my drivers license. I am 21 and been in 3 car accidents. One because I was a dumb 15 year old. Another because a super drunk guy didnt see that my large jeep was stopped for over 30 seconds at a red light and third because I was leaving the courthouse after testifying against that drunk guy which is the only reason I drove 4 hours home from college that day. Two miles from the courthouse I was driving the speed limit through a yellow light and I was hit by an old man who ran a red light and got out of his car. He got out and said he it was his fault and did not know what had happened. Then lied later and the insurance companies never found out who was at fault and I had to pay 1000 dollars. 3 months later I lost my license to epilepsy and i still dont have it. My insurance company is likely going to make my rates skyrocket because of all of those accidents, that is if I ever get my license back. That guy who hit me lies gets off free when he is a far worse driver than I am, he still has his license when i tell the truth! I hate it, but logically it does make sense when you think about it when it comes to controlling the safety of the public. But if i cant have a license anyone over the age of 70 shouldnt be able to have on either, unless they are physically able to pass extensive tests. This shit is frustrating!

[maureen]

I've been reading peoples thoughts with interest. I can't say for sure what I think about the laws here in Ontario. It's six months for the first seizure then 1 year for any after that. I am very lucky. I can walk to work, the grocery store etc. I live in Toronto which has excellent public transit. I also have a wonderful husband that feels driving me places is part of his job as being my husband.

I've been suspended, maybe should be right now too. My neurologist is trusting me not to drive as we try and get the meds right. I feel privileged that he trusts me that much that he won't report me and will not betray that trust.

I find is extremely frustrating at times. Being an independent person I hate having to ask others for a lift. However, I have never been turned down when I ask for a ride. People are only too willing to help. That's great when, a couple of weeks ago I was involved in a 3 day conference. I was really frustrated that I couldn't drive myself but ended up having no trouble - everyone stepped in to give me a ride one way or another.

[brain]

Maureen:

I don't know if you read the posting (if it's
still there), however, I did make some
postings elsewhere on the internet - not
just in USA; but I'm finding in regards to
International ~ Epilepsy & Driving is amazing.

Some areas are so lax that they don't give
a flip who's behind the wheel, but other areas
are so rigid that it will cost you an arm, leg,
and your entire life and sign your name in blood
please ... that is - if you make it that far.

BUT .... I am totally BEWILDERED! They will
allow someone who's had multiple cardiac
surgeries (very high risk) to keep on driving,
while those who are fully under control of
medications who have Epilepsy cannot? Or
those with other Health Issues which are far
more hazardous and often times are the causes
of accidents? Frankly, I'm puzzled!

[Yves]

Im my case (France makes a record of non abided laws every year),
N°1 you are to denounce yourself to a local driving commitee after a brain surgery. The neurologist nor your MD are to do that because it's medical "secrecy".
In proper words, you give your lifelong license back
N°2 You have to wait 3 months.
N°3 you must be 6 months seizure free to come back to the commitee to get a temporary license (3 months, 6 months, 1 year) depending on your medical record. If you have no problems => you'll get your original license back

Problems are (not necesseraly in order):
- the commitee is composed of MD, there are only 1 or 2 neurologist sitting. Basically most of them know nearly nothing about epilepsy.
- People (MD) tend to avoid responsability (the zero risk attitude). => they block files as they have to check paper like : is the driver seizure free for x months? Yes or No If yes, ok. If no, then forget it.
- It's like playing dice, with the same medical records, depending on the group mood or composition or LOCATION, you'll get your license back or never
- my epilepsy seems chemoresistant => i still have seizures (not very often 2/months) usually but they have no influence on my driving, there are no moves of my body (arm, finger, etc). My seizures are "invisible".
- in my case (and my opinion), it's not the kind of seizure that is the problem but my drugs. They are "level 2" types (driving not recommended) as they lower your attention and reaction speed. That's why for years I drove very little (about 1/30 of what I used to drive the first year, 1/15 the 2 year, I am now up to 1/5 3000 miles/years). Because the drugs impact my response time, I have to be extra concentrated to the road, other drivers, etc driving is then a pleasure no more, it is just exhausting, I guess I inject so much adrenaline to keep attention up.
But I still drive and had no accident (sometimes, it was close but in no case my fault and I manage to avoid it). Only once the first year I was driving and daydreamling like because of the medication, I stopped in extremis because a car was coming towards me and I hadn't THOUGHT it would.
They are several reasons driving and I'm sure you have the same:
A . I have little children (3) and my wife can't do everything with the 3 of them around. I usually drive them to sport (twice a week), to ER(at least once a year) when they fell it happens especially with 3 little boys.
B. We live in a small town about 25 miles from my work. for 2 years, I managed to go to work using local buses but they rescheduled everything, now I'm screwed We can't live nearby it : to much pollution(my elder son has somekind of asthma and chemical risk (plenty of chemical plants, actually I work there!!)
C. The nearest city is 5 miles, I go there shopping.
D. When we go for holidays, trip can easily 7 hours of driving. before my operation and my epilepsy, I used to drive all the way, now it's my wife who's driving => I drive up to 1.5 hour so that she can take a nap.
I drive a minimum, no more than 100 miles per week
, I still have my driving license (so when I get a ticket, I can show it to the police) => I violated the law to keep it and we are still working on the administrative part with my neurologist.
I would to keep it that way but officially, not hiding like I do. Both my neurologist back me up
Because of all this, I already thought of lying because only I can see I have seizures. I am quite fed up with the situation I live now just because the law is unfair, and not only based on the patient neurologist advice

[keyna]

I don't drive, the Dr. didn't officially take away my license, but she did tell me I wasn't allowed to drive and that if I did she would send in the papers to have it taken away. It doesn't matter my mom went and sold my car to make sure I couldn't drive. I live next door to my mother because I'm not allowed to live alone, so I had to move out in the middle of no where in the woods. Any way if you can't trust the person not to drive, then you have to take their license away otherwise someone could get hurt or killed. No it's not fair, and yes it SUCKS, but we have epilepsy haven't we learned life SUCKS!?

[BuckeyeFan]

I was a volunteer EMT for 20 years. Though I responded many times to patients having seizures, I can only think of one car accident that was caused by a seizure.
During this same period, I saw many, many accidents caused by diabetic reactions, heart attacks, drunk drivers, sleepy drivers, and yes elderly folks who simply did not belong on the road anymore (sadly).
None of these people (other than the drinkers) lost their license.
I also saw many accidents caused by bad weather, but only during the worst conditions were people banned from driving.
I also saw hundreds of accidents caused by healthy, coherent people who just simply had an accident caused by an instant of inattention.
My state of Ohio is based on the Doctor's orders. The one time my neurologist pulled my driving privledges, he just depended on me and never notified the state. I use my common sense and only drive if I am feeling well. Luckily, I generally have had plenty of warning auras before a tonic-clonic and stay out of the driver's seat. One of my worst nightmares would be to kill someone else if I seized while driving, so I am pretty careful.
I have no problem with those of us with E having limited driving priviledges. I just think that it should be extended to other medical problems as well.
Driving is a priviledge, not a right.

[forward2007]

The reality is the DMV or a Dr. cannot predict the odds of someone with epilepsy being any more of a safety liability than someone who has a personal history or a family history of heart disease or stroke. Unfortunately, it is "socially acceptable" to kill another person while driving because you had a heart attack or stroke. It's not like there are any states that take away your driver's license if your BMI, cholesterol, or blood pressure are too high.

[tinasmom]

Wisconsin is a self reporting state and if you report that you have had a seizure, you need to be seizure free for 3 months to get your license back (with doctor's consent). The way I look at it is if you have ANY condition where you could possibly cause injury to someone else by driving, you should not drive. I also believe that the elderly should have to take a driving test in order to keep their license. I guess if someone told me that driving for me was not a safe thing to do, I would really have to do some soul searching. I would ask myself these questions:

1. Could my driving cause harm to someone else?
2. Could my driving cause harm to myself?

There are so many wreckless drivers out there and let's not get forget about road rage.

This is just such a touchy subject because it makes you dependent on others.

[brain]

I was a volunteer EMT for 20 years. Though I responded many times to patients having seizures, I can only think of one car accident that was caused by a seizure.
During this same period, I saw many, many accidents caused by diabetic reactions, heart attacks, drunk drivers, sleepy drivers, and yes elderly folks who simply did not belong on the road anymore (sadly).
None of these people (other than the drinkers) lost their license.
I also saw many accidents caused by bad weather, but only during the worst conditions were people banned from driving.
I also saw hundreds of accidents caused by healthy, coherent people who just simply had an accident caused by an instant of inattention.
My state of Ohio is based on the Doctor's orders. The one time my neurologist pulled my driving privledges, he just depended on me and never notified the state. I use my common sense and only drive if I am feeling well. Luckily, I generally have had plenty of warning auras before a tonic-clonic and stay out of the driver's seat. One of my worst nightmares would be to kill someone else if I seized while driving, so I am pretty careful.
I have no problem with those of us with E having limited driving priviledges. I just think that it should be extended to other medical problems as well.
Driving is a priviledge, not a right.

I would have to side with you on this
one here. I've been in 26 (yes, 26 now)
MVA. *sigh* Now - 3 as a cyclist, several as a
passenger, and remainder as a driver - and believe
it or not, none of them were my fault - ever!

Majority of the accidents were those
rear-end collisions where after a dry
spell / drought and it finally rains,
and the brief showers (oil & water do
not mix), and people forget how to
drive in the rain, especially when
it hasn't rained for awhile; and they
hydroplane! Go figure, rear-end into
my car or mine and another vehicle(s).

The worse accident that resulted trauma
were actually caused by Felons! 1988
was a felon trying to flee the State in
a stolen car and lost control in a freshly
rained pavement in a dangerous curve
where I was actually pronounced DOA,
but I wasn't DOA! Never was taken to
a Trauma Hospital (we were in the
outskirts of the Metro Area and in the
rural area) but instead was taken to
a tiny ill equipped Hospital; fortunately
was finally taken to a bigger Hospital
via a car by a friend who works at a
Trauma Hospital but too much time
had lapsed and I had already been
seizing in the backseat of his car and
was rerouted to the nearest Hospital
that was more equipped to handle me.

Then in June 2007 - another trauma;
only this time a Felon with a stolen
car was fleeing from a Cop ... this one
put an end to my driving days; even
though we (my son and I) were the
2nd victims of the impact, the car
was completely destroyed where in
3 business days after the accident,
it was scrapped for junk.

I had been driving since I've obtained
my Learner's Permit. I've complied
with my State's DMV (now DHSMV)
Medical Board's request whenever
they submitted it. My driving record
was excellent and had been marked
as Safe Driver for years.

Because of that Felon - I now no
longer drive, but carry a ID Card,
and I cannot do a thing about it
or anything against the Felon either
for he has nothing.

Considering of all the vehicles that
were out there; he had to hit us.

So it's an insult really.

And yet - when I look around; I see
these Drunk Drivers right back on the
road again - Drinking and Driving,
right after they just got caught for
DUI or DWI and bought their way out
of it all. Then you have uninsured folks
and stolen cars, and like I posted earlier
people who shouldn't be driving - are
driving, and my front rim of my Trek
Cycle is bent - because of a car that
pulled out in front of me causing me
to crash into the raised sewer drain
cover, and as for the driver? Long gone
and couldn't even get a tag number!

People are driving carelessly and very
wreckless where to a point that traffic
signals don't mean a thing in a world
to them anymore. It's scary!

[John-Forrest]

I think a lot of this is a reflection on how poor public transportation is in the U.S. Public transportation is so poor that it is literally a necessity of life to have a motorized vehicle to get around. Are we supposed to walk two miles along a freeway to get to the grocery store? Or hitchhike to see the MD (who usually set up right next to an interstate exit)?

Maybe if public transportation were improved so you can get anywhere - even out for a hike in the mountains, this wouldn't be such a problem.

Meanwhile, I take my chances - and hide my condition from the Powers That Be!

John

[skillefer]

I have to agree with Buckeye. Driving is indeed a privelege, not a right. However, my state is a mandatory reporting state, and my family needs my income. So, that puts me in the position where I can't be honest with my doctor. Which means I may not get the medical help that I really need. Kind of messed up, but it's what I have to do.

[RobinN]

An epilepsy sufferer who admitted causing the death of a motorcyclist by careless driving has been disqualified from driving for life.

Life ban for death crash driver

[John-Forrest]

Actually, it wouldn't be inconceivable that a person having a grand mal seizure crossing a busy traffic intersection could cause a serious MVA just when the light changes. Or going out of control on a bicycle, getting in front of an 18 wheeler who swerves over to the other lane, killing someone in a small sports car. I wonder if something like that has ever happened?

Perhaps we should be banned from walking and riding bikes too?

Along that line, I once attempted to get handicapped bus service - and they told me I would have to hire an attendant to accompany me just for the service. That's bizarre!

[spinnymommy]

If one surrenders one's license, is there any trouble getting an official id card? Does it work the same as a driver's license when cashing checks etc? Do clerks/whoever have to legally accept it where they require driver's licenses as id?

[alivenwell]

If one surrenders one's license, is there any trouble getting an official id card? Does it work the same as a driver's license when cashing checks etc? Do clerks/whoever have to legally accept it where they require driver's licenses as id?

Here in PA, a non-drivers' id is available. They put a photo on it (they're never pretty!) and a non-social security number on it. That number stays the same whether you drive or not. It sure beats the heck out of going into a bar with a photo copy of a birth certificate if you're young or good looking enough to be carded so that you can just drink a coke.
Frankly, I do a lot of online shopping and stay off the roads! Let the Fed-Ex, USPS, UPS and any other delivery systems bring the stuff to my door!
I don't know if anybody else goes through this, but I've found that by NOT driving, I do more interesting things like playing piano, musical analysis and composition, reading, puzzles, art and whatever interests me. Driving is simply getting behind a wheel, turning a key, pushing a floor pedal and moving a huge exhaust emitting machine to go to the store or where ever. I found that by not driving, that I really plan out my written lists for the store when I do go. And, I really, really love when I attend a live concert. It makes me appreciate the finer things in life.

[angel]

you know whats really funny! your driving with someone who does not have e and they dont see the car stopped in the road because they are talking and all spaced out..... SO you say theres a car stopped in the road... they keep talking... duh... then you yell really loud STOP!!! slams on the breaks and thank you for saving us from having car crash .... then i turn to them and say OMG! they wont let people with epilepsy drive this is scary....

she starts laughing and agrees....

that happened to me the other day thank god crossing fingers i only have a week left no driving.... I was driving with my mom haha

OH yeah then driving with my DAD the grumpy guy who yells at every driver because they cant drive! lol

& my husband who is the bumper hugger... who drives over the white line because he doesnt want to get close to the yellow line & speed's past people because they are driving to slow....... my 22 year old son I dont mind driving with as hes a safe driver I dont do the foot and break thing when hes driving..... I think ive put holes in the passenger side of most my family's cars haha
love,
angel

[alivenwell]

I regularly see one lady in another car at the same intersection putting on makeup when the light is red. She has it down to an art...including eye liner. She can't be watching the traffic light. I suppose she watches the car in front of her or something.

Amazing how many idiots are free and roaming out there!

My dad also yells at other cars. His dog isn't fazed at all by it. His dog goes along for the cookies.