Antibiotics

Welcome to the Coping With Epilepsy Forums

Welcome to the Coping With Epilepsy forums - a peer support community for folks dealing (directly or indirectly) with seizure disorders. You can visit the forum page to see the list of forum nodes (categories/rooms) for topics.

Please have a look around and if you like what you see, please consider registering an account and joining the discussions. When you register an account and log in, you may enjoy additional benefits including no ads, access to members only (ie. private) forum nodes and more. Registering an account is free - you have nothing to lose!

MMRocks

New
Messages
85
Reaction score
0
Points
0
So I've been feeling increased fear, paranoia, delusions, feelings of persecution, etc for some time. I thought since it was continuing over time it couldn't possibly be seizure related. I was so wrong.

I've been having illnesses and injuries almost back to back for the past few months. So I've been on several antibiotics.

It was only on Friday night (02/13/15) that I learned that the antibiotics I took can not only cause seizures, but can cause SEVERE seizures. This is AFTER having a discussion with my GP about checking my meds for seizure triggers, and the same discussion with the Pharmacist.

I almost destroyed everything in my life, in every way. Thankfully I stopped myself in time, but it was a very, very near thing.

Please please please do not assume your health care providers are properly checking your meds, and check for yourselves.
 
Holy Crap!

Unfortunately, I can't say I'm all that surprised. I just learned by reading a book that the very AED I have been on for decades also causes BC pills to be less effective. This might have something to do with the three times I know of that I had missed periods and then horrendously crampy and heavy when it did start (not normal for me). I was having early term miscarriages.

I'm now post menopausal so I suppose it doesn't matter anymore but still. WTF?

Never once did any neuro or GP tell me about this interaction.

So glad you figured it out before any further harm was done.
 
Its awesome you got that figured out.

It seems to me that a lot of health providers don't take a drugs potential to lower the seizure threshold seriously. My GUESS is that they see that only something .05% (I'm making that up) have seizures, and that it is therefore safe. That's not true because people with epilepsy have a predisposition to seizures, and some of us have really low thresholds. A cup of coffee can set some people off. That doesn't mean you can't take any of those meds, but you have to be careful.
 
Yes there sure are some bad antibiotics out there for seizures--and it seems almost no one pays epilepsy any mind when prescribing them. I'm so glad you got it figured out!
 
Those of us with unhealthy brains have to be extra-vigilant/aware/informed about the medications we're prescribed by others with supposedly healthy brains. A tad ironic perhaps.
 
So, if antibiotics can worsen seizures, might probiotics help in some people?

I've been reading about how they can improve vitamin B12 and folate levels which is important for serotonin synthesis among other things. Also they can decrease homocysteine which is good for blood flow. They can help stabilize blood sugar and weight loss and lower cholesterol. Perhaps most importantly, they can displace the overgrown microbes living in the wrong place, i.e., the small intestine. Plenty of good science behind use of probiotics, especially one called VSL#3. A friend with an epileptic dog is reporting much improvement using this probiotic. But they need to be delivered refrigerated to be active. I believe there are many products out there that are far from optimal.
 
Last edited:
Please please please do not assume your health care providers are properly checking your meds, and check for yourselves.

:agree: DO NOT ASSUME anything, except that they (the health care providers) are in it for the $$. And a lot of times the drs. are friends with the pharmaceuticals, just for the "benefits" from that drug company. I used to see pharmaceutical reps at my doc's office all the time, taking up my time to see the dr. And the doctors are only going to prescribe meds they are familiar with and those that the pharmaceuticals have given them samples of.

My psychiatrist prescribed a med for me when I was very, very depressed that causes Type 1 Diabetes. So like you said, Do Not ASSUME your health care providers are checking the meds.
 
Keith, have you explored the work of Dr John Symes DVM? (dogtorjcom)
I think you would find it interesting.
 
Aloha, yes, and I've communicated quite a bit with Dogtor J on Facebook.
 
Do remember that "Dr." Symes is trained as a veterinarian & not a human doctor. As it says on his site
The Main Course consists of the more lengthy papers I’ve written over the years, some of which are summaries of my research while others are transcripts of veterinary lectures

He is a member here & when asking him what research he had that proved his points he always told me to "look it up". That makes me think that his "research" is really nothing more than web surfing.

For those reasons alone I'm very skeptical of his claims.
 
Last edited:
I've been reading about how they can improve vitamin B12 and folate levels which is important for serotonin synthesis among other things.


Can you cite where you read that vitamin B12 improves folate levels? Folate levels are not needed for serotonin synthesis.
Biosynthesis
In animals including humans, serotonin is synthesized from the amino acid L-tryptophan by a short metabolic pathway consisting of two enzymes: tryptophan hydroxylase (TPH) and aromatic amino acid decarboxylase (DDC). The TPH-mediated reaction is the rate-limiting step in the pathway. TPH has been shown to exist in two forms: TPH1, found in several tissues, and TPH2, which is a neuron-specific isoform.[72]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin#Biosynthesis

Keith, you say there's lots of good science so please cite that science. I've seen no studies that say probiotics do any of those things & you've not been able to supply any valid citations that they do.
Remember anecdotes are not evidence.
 
Do remember that "Dr." Symes is trained as a veterinarian & not a human doctor. As it says on his site

He is a member here & when asking him what research he had that proved his points he always told me to "look it up". That makes me think that his "research" is really nothing more than web surfing.

For those reasons alone I'm very skeptical of his claims.

So what if he's a vet? Let's please not start this again. The last time Dr. Symes was contributing to this board, you were so massively rude to him that he hasn't bothered in quite a while and I don't blame him.

Here is a man who has potentially invaluable information to contribute. Let others decide for themselves what is is or isn't worth to them.

He was telling you to look up stuff that is beyond theory to the point of medical consensus. I don't think he has to do your googling for you.

I have taken his advice to cut out dairy products and it is helping me. Do i have a double blind placebo controlled study to "prove" that? Sorry, I don't. Would I be seriously peeved if you had driven him away before I got a chance to get that information and act on it? Oh, yeah.
 
So what if he's a vet? Let's please not start this again. The last time Dr. Symes was contributing to this board, you were so massively rude to him that he hasn't bothered in quite a while and I don't blame him.

I just feel that if he's trained to treat animals he should not pretend to be trained to treat humans. I wouldn't go to a podiatrist for my epilepsy, why would being a vet qualify him to speak about human neurology?

Just the fact that he would come to a site for a human medical condition (as CWE is) and insist on being called doctor is very misleading and if nothing else it should be noted that he has no recognised qualifications to treat humans.

I'm sorry you think I was rude to him but I see nothing wrong with asking someone to provide proof or give valid citations. Personally I see more rudeness in posting unproven & un-cited claims than I do in questioning them.

If you're comfortable with an animal doctors suggestions that's fine but I see it as deceitful to imply that he is qualified to treat humans as some readers might think.
 
Last edited:
He doesn't pretend to be anything he's not. His website clearly states DVM which stands for DOCTOR of Veterinary Medicine.

I don't blame him that he took offense at you insisting on calling him MR Symes. He is a doctor. And you were very rude.

MD's learn how to treat one beast, homo sapiens. Vets learn how to treat hundreds of different animals. Who do you think ends up with a broader knowledge base?

Try reading his suggestions before you pass summary judgement.
 
He doesn't pretend to be anything he's not. His website clearly states DVM which stands for DOCTOR of Veterinary Medicine.
He has earned the title of doc but as a vet. I just feel that being so insistent about it on a human health site is misleading.

I don't blame him that he took offense at you insisting on calling him MR Symes. He is a doctor. And you were very rude.
Your opinion. Mine is he was rude but maybe we should stop with the name calling or neither of us have a right to call anyone else rude.

MD's learn how to treat one beast, homo sapiens. Vets learn how to treat hundreds of different animals. Who do you think ends up with a broader knowledge base?

You think that a course that takes 3-6 years of (unstandardized) animal health courses qualifies someone to treat a human more than a neurologist who has studied Human neurology for 10-13 years?
I would trust 10-13 years on neurology than 3-6 years divided up on a variety of animals to treat me any time. Remember broader knowledge is not deeper knowledge. Your remark reminds me of the expression "Jack of all trades, master of none".
Veterinary medical school curricula are not standardized. Programs may last anywhere from three to six years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterinary_education

Neurologists complete, on average, at least 10–13 years of college education and clinical training
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurology#Training

Try reading his suggestions before you pass summary judgement.
Please understand I have read his suggestions & that is why I have the opinions I do.
 
And I have known more about my epilepsy than just about every neuro I have been assigned to. Years of schooling do not necessarily equal wisdom.

Vet med schools are not standardized. Neither are human MD schools. If you can't get in in the US many med students can and do get their degrees from whatever third world school will have them but they are still addressed as Dr. when they get back.

Dr. Symes is not pretending to be anything other than a vet who has learned some things along the way in his many years of practice and extensive research. This learning comes from not only his patients but also their owners.

He is sharing that knowledge or trying to until someone with the title of "super moderator" steps in and presumes to speak for everyone on this board.

Why is it so inconceivable to you that there might be some wisdom gained by experience with animal?. Isn't that why they do clinical testing on animals for human remedies?

You have the right to reject his ideas out of hand for your life and E if you want but don't keep others here from making that decision for themselves.

And calling you rude is not me being rude (although nice way to turn it around). It's an accurate description of your attacks on Dr. Symes.
 
I never claimed to talk for everyone on this board. I do however feel that when people make claims they should be shown to be proven by the scientific method or it should be said that they are unproven as of yet. Doing that is not making decisions for anyone else but allowing others to make a more informed decision.

There may be some wisdom gained in looking at animals but I disagree with the claim that because something works in animals it must work in humans. Even the scientific studies that are done in mice & rats are considered very preliminary until they have been done in humans.
 
I've been waiting for a scientifically "proven" solution to my epilepsy for 30 years. Forgive me for not wanting to wait another 30.

In the mean time we try things and see if they do or don't work for us. We report back here so that everyone can share the knowledge.

If you are ready to just settle for "a sickness you like", that's your decision. I'm looking for a cure. I'm not giving up hope and I am willing to experiment with the unproven.

I would hope that CWE would be about supporting each other in our various experiments. For example I recently tried taking melatonin for my nocturnal seizures and found out that, for me it actually makes it worse. Yes that is just one anecdotal story but when lots start piling up here, people approach something like melatonin with more caution.

Yes, Dr. Symes has a collection of anecdotes from his work but when they start piling up, shouldn't that be interesting rather than sneered at because he doesn't have the grant funding for a huge trial? And again, he is never pretending that his work is anything other than what it is. Gathered wisdom from years of cases.

In my working life I was a university professor. I know what constitutes good research and what is junk science. For every discovery that has made it through to the peer reviewed double blind placebo controlled level of truth , there are many others that aren't there yet. That doesn't mean they are junk, just that they aren't there yet.

I'm not going to sit on my hands waiting for a level of proof that satisfies you.

You never even bothered to say that you were glad the changes in my diet made on Dr. Symes' recommendations are working for me. Isn't that supposed to be what this forum is about?
 
Re: Original post. I did not know about antibiotics either!!

Two years ago they gave me doxycycline (which I had never been given before) and I vomited after each dose then had a bad seizure-- which I thought was from vomiting. I was on either Phenobarbital or lamictal at the time, not sure which. I kept calling the doctor for a different kind and he said there were no others --for what I had-- that I was not allergic to. ( I am only allergic to penicillin and amoxicillin. ) Anyway because I stopped the doxycycline, the infection got worse and I had an adrenal crisis and ended up in hospital. When they asked why I stopped taking it I told them everything. At no time did anyone mention a relationship between antibiotics and epilepsy or antibiotics and seizure meds.

THANK YOU for posting this.

Are there ANY that are less likely to trigger us?
 
Side effects of antibiotics really kick my but as well. I've had to learn lessons the hard way a few times a little after I was diagnosed, but now, before they prescribe me something or before I go to the pharmacy to pick something up I double check to make sure that they don't cause seizures.

Even if it's not listed, I'm still a little paranoid
 
Back
Top Bottom