Exploring the Gut-Brain Connection and Photosensitivity

[kirsten]

Yes, I'm well aware of the similarities in chemical structure between nicotinic acid and nicotine. This does not make them the same thing, or put them in the same family. Smoking actually causes vitamin B deficiency. If your hypothesis is that nicotine oxidises to become nicotinic acid through a nicotine patch or cigarette, you will need to explain how, when and where the oxidisation happens. There would need to be, for example, the introduction of sulpuric acid or acetyl chloride after the smoke is processed through the lungs or at some point in the system after nicotine has been absorbed into the bloodstream--nicotine ionises rather than oxidises when it's first absorbed. Later on it unionises rather than oxidises. Where in the body does nicotine come into contact with sulphuric acid? Where does that sulphuric acid come from? More bafflingly, after nicotine has turned into cotiline and N′-oxide, when and how does it change back into nicotine in order to be oxidised to become nicotinic acid? Is it possible for N' oxide and cotiline to revert back to nicotine? How does that happen? Which chemicals cause the reaction and when?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2953858/

Please don't be distracted by the following comment--I would really like to hear your response to the problems I outlined above.

Your premise has been that microbial toxins cause seizure, and that various ways of detoxifying the body will eliminate seizure. Why are you now wanting to add a toxin to the body to treat seizure? If you have considered that question in the way I've put it, can you present studies that show evidence of nicotine having a benign effect on digestion, blood sugar balance, and microbial toxins?

 

[Keith]

Niacin is oxidized nicotine, that's a fact. Exactly how nicotine may become niacin (which is converted to niacinamide/nicotinamide) is a brilliant question.

I didn't know sulfuric acid may be a mechanism, how interesting considering it's a product of sulfur and sulfate-reducing bacteria (SRB) which are known high in autism, hence high neurotoxic propionic acid. SRBs produce hydrogen sulfide which can be oxidized to sulfuric acid. Hydrogen sulfide is also produced by the human body as a signaling molecule. Aerobic bacteria may oxidize hydrogen sulfide to produce sulfuric acid.
http://www.pnas.org/content/110/33/13582.long
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/04/140417124708.htm

I'm not promoting smoking. But I am promoting use of niacinamide, especially before bed.

My premise is not simply that microbial toxins cause seizure, but that intestinal microbial imbalance leads to sugar, pH and hormonal imbalances as cause of seizure. Brain flora imbalance is another matter entirely, still possibly of gut origin as microbes may breach the blood-brain barrier.

 

[Keith]

Karen, when a dear friend of mine quit smoking after many years, he got a fungal lung infection and had to have a third of his lung removed. Niacinamide is a known antifungal. I'm thinking that when people do quit smoking they should take niacinamide. It was used by alcoholics to quit in the beginning days of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Flora shift with smoking and drinking alcohol (as well as meat-eating) all include raising Bacteroides and lowering Firmicutes. So, when people quit smoking, their Firmicutes rise, associated with obesity. But people who are chronic smokers and drinkers (and meat-eaters) are using too much of a good thing causing Bacteroides overgrowth associated with cancer.

 

[kirsten]

Niacin is oxidized nicotine, that's a fact. Exactly how nicotine may become niacin (which is converted to niacinamide/nicotinamide) is a brilliant question.

Then please will you answer it.

To avert misunderstanding, I have agreed that nicotine is oxidised nicotinic acid. I don't believe that point is even up for debate. Oxidisation is, however, not something that simply happens unprovoked or in all cases and situations. And that a chemical turns into another chemical after oxidation does not make the two ulimate resulting chemicals even slightly alike. You've said that the nicotine patch helps epilepsy because 'niacin', and my question is how, when, and where does nicotine oxidise to become niacin in the body after absorption through a patch?

 

[kirsten]

niacinamide. It was used by alcoholics to quit in the beginning days of Alcoholics Anonymous.

It was used for its potential mood stabilising effects during later sobriety after quitting drinking. If any substance was used by AA in those days during the detox process, it was Belladona.
http://www.barefootsworld.net/aa-bbtrivia.html#bb7 (control f belladona to find)

Please will you give us the reference for niacin being used to quit drinking. I'm just trying to get an idea of how you're processing the information you're finding. From the outside, this conclusion seems to have been made by manipulating data to support your point. I'm quite sure that is not the case, so I'd like to see your reference.

 

[kirsten]

I'm not promoting smoking. But I am promoting use of niacinamide, especially before bed.

But you have promoted the nicotine patch:

If you do try niacinamide or a nicotine patch, be very careful and start with a low dose.

My question stands:

Your premise has been that microbial toxins cause seizure, and that various ways of detoxifying the body will eliminate seizure. Why are you now wanting to add a toxin to the body to treat seizure? If you have considered that question in the way I've put it, can you present studies that show evidence of nicotine having a benign effect on digestion, blood sugar balance, and microbial toxins?

 

[Keith]

I'm not promoting a nicotine patch even though there was success in halting seizure with it. I have no experience with it, but I have used niacinamide personally. It's a natural component of the body. I surmise the mechanism of success may be the same as or similar to the nicotine patch . . . here's the kind I've used:
http://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-niacinamide-vitamin-b-3

There's niacinamide in tons of products including skin care and multivitamins, but in very low dose.

 

[kirsten]

I'm not promoting a nicotine patch even though there was success in halting seizure with it. I have no experience with it, but I have used niacinamide personally. It's a natural component of the body. I surmise the mechanism of success may be the same as or similar to the nicotine patch .

Let me try to rephrase the question. You've hypothesised that nicotine has been effective in a patient's epilepsy treatment because of niacin's effects on the body. I'm asking you to back up that hypothesis. Earlier, you tried to back it up by telling us that nicotine and nicotinic acid had structural similarities. I met that by explaining what that actually meant and how the body metabolises nicotine. We are now back to the beginning of the discussion, where I'm asking you to support your initial premise, which is really a lot of conclusions about nicotine’s involvement and/or similarities in/to the effects of nicotinic acid--my original request was for you to back up this statement:

People actually become ill and gain weight after they stop smoking because of the flora shift. They've been inhaling a form of vitamin (B3, niacin). Smoking has actually been promoted for use in Alzheimer's!

Put simply, please explain how smoking is inhaling a form of vitamin B3? How does nicotine oxidise to become nicotinic acid after absorption?

Or, to put it even more simply, in relation to your statement that

I surmise the mechanism of success may be the same as or similar to the nicotine patch

How do you surmise that? How is the nicotine patch similar to the mechanism of 'success' with nicotinic acid?

 

[Janus]

Guys. I love the thread. I am an inquiring mind and examine all sides of each premise that i possibly can and this is a fruitful thread that is very informative and amusing. Especially as an ex-smoker and sober alcoholic and vitamin taker with a penchant for studying nutrition i am loving following the heated debate. I only wish we got along better. I sense some real animosity here and i like both sides here and do not want to get in the middle of this and upset each side on me! So lets agree. What if everybody was right?

 

[DHMary]

The zonigran literature says it can lead to complication with Keto diet metabolic acidosis


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[DHMary]

Nicotine patch did work on nocturnal seizure heriditAry type in a study of one in australia. Did not hear about niacin in the study?


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[kirsten]

Janus, I have no animosity towards Keith. I don't confuse his statements with his personality; I'm not under the illusion that his research and opinions have any baring on his character. I address the premise directly so that we can get to a point of understanding as to what suggestions, data, and expertise we should be following to treat our epilepsy. It's my belief that lay medical suggestions should be treated with the utmost care, and we really do need to be careful because they don't take all factors into account, which can lead to very dangerous scenarios. The video at the bottom of this post uses the Dr Oz debacle to outline some of the reasons that these naturopathic suggestions are not as benign as they seem: http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/john-oliver-verbally-batters-dr-oz
So I ask that these suggestions be carefully read and processed and understood before they are published on a public forum. Where they have been published without full understanding of all the factors involved, it's important that we work through them to figure out if they make sense, before Joe Soap with an extreme risk of SUDEP and frequent episodes of status starts treating himself with a nicotine patch because he thinks it's harmless because it's almost exactly like vitamin B (and when he starts off on the lowest suggested dosage thinking that that applies to nonsmokers as well as smokers, which it doesn't--a pretty dangerous scenario that you might be familiar with in relation to heroin addicts in recovery who relapse on their usual dosage and die.)

This is a debate about facts--there is no way to 'take sides' or end up in the middle. Your views are as relevant as any here, and I'm sure that everyone would respect your thoughts. We are ALL laypeople, none more qualified than the next, which means that if you tell me that painting your bedroom pink with blue polka dots cured your epilepsy permanently, I wouldn't be in the least bit upset.

 

[Keith]

kirsten, I wish I had all the answers, but I'm just an explorer. Here's my photo diary on the subject of niacin, niacinamide and nicotine. If you scroll through the headlines, you might find more info. Recently, I've been learning about how nicotinamide and nicotine stimulate release of prostaglandins in the gut and elsewhere, a fascinating area of research.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153576601985602&l=49728a1a4d

Let's acknowledge the fact that not everything is known or understood. There are plenty of drugs including anticonvulsants where mechanism of action is unknown.

 

[kirsten]

You've created a whole bunch of concepts based on the misconception that nicotine can turn into niacin in the body. You haven't been able to support your view (one of your Facebook posts even disproves it), and now you're saying that you don't mind that it doesn't make sense, you're going to continue to believe it anyway, and you're going to continue trying to convince other people of that belief as well. That isn't exploring, it's running in circles in the same 1 metre squared spot for weeks (or months or years.)

I agree with you that the vast majority of things are not known or understood. Creating a tier of hypothesese based on something we know can't happen without having a clue how your implausible idea might be possible is not giving anyone new understanding or knowledge. When you spread that idea far and wide, you're increasing the number of things that aren't known or understood.

Drugs with mysterious mechanisms of action have been put through the mill, tested for years for safety and efficacy on an enormous scale and then studied in market according to the experiences of thousands or millions or billions or people. In other words, nobody's saying they've synthesised a light emitting jelly baby, decided it must be good for cancer because that's a fun idea, and then run around the web en masse giving it away because not everything is known or understood.

Here’s our discussion in less technical terms:
Keith: Did you know that green is a mixture of red and white?
Kirsten: Well, no, Keith, that’s pretty odd, because when thousands of other people mix red and white they get pink. Maybe you mean blue and yellow? People have been using blue and yellow to make green for ages.
Keith: No, green can definitely be made from red and white.
Kirsten: Can you explain how that could happen?
Keith: No.
Kirsten: Can you show us how it could happen?
Keith: No
Kirsten: But then surely it’s just not true?
Keith: It’s totally true. I can’t prove it because I’m just an explorer and also because the world doesn’t know everything.

Don’t get me wrong. I love reading wild ideas. I make a habit of buying Edge.org books that contain essays by scientists, most often about their craziest ideas and those ideas they can’t prove but think are true anyway. A few differences between those essays and your posts:
-1) Decades of studying, testing, and practice give them a foundation that lets them formulate absurd ideas that have rock solid foundations. They write within their fields of study and back up their thoughts with facts. There are no chemists writing about global warming, no neurologists writing about oncology. That doesn't mean you shouldn't read scientific papers. It just means you need to spend an hour or more investigating every aspect of every one--every chemical, every statistic, all physiology, the studies in that field that just vaguely relate to it, the evidence that already exists. I charge an immensely higher rate for my medical articles because for every one study that I cite, I will have needed to read, in intense detail, through 20 or more similar studies to make sure that the one I cite is truly representative.
-2) Their essays are always very clear about what evidence there really is and what parts of their ideas have absolutely no evidence, and the reasons why they think what they do, and even the parts of their ideas that make absolutely no sense and why they make no sense. They acknowledge the wildness of their ideas.

The thing about their essays is that they are studied, ethical and, above all, humble.
Nothing wrong with saying ‘I believe electromagnetic chocolate might eventually cure all cancer, if it also says, “though this would be difficult to prove” or “But if I am wrong” or “if x then I am wrong” or “Just maybe" or "it would be nice to have firm footing."
Which were all phrases used on the Edge.org site by the greatest scientific minds in the world, many of them Nobel laureates. Do you know more than they do?

http://edge.org/responses/what-do-you-believe-is-true-even-though-you-cannot-prove-it

 

[Janus]

There has been no real note of diet. see the info about one food here

Improved weight management is in fact one of the health benefits of avocado consumption, according to recent research, and its high-fat, low-sugar content is part and parcel of this effect.

On most days, I will add a whole avocado to my salad, which I eat for lunch. This increases my healthy fat and calorie intake without seriously increasing my protein or carbohydrate intake. Since avocados are also high in potassium, they will also help balance your vitally important potassium to sodium ratio.

 

[Keith]

I agree, kirsten, it's a very intriguing question: how can nictotine be converted to niacin in the body? We've established that niacin is oxidized nicotine. We've also produced examples for how nicotine can be oxidized in the body. We also know that when people stop smoking there is profound flora shift. It's amazing stuff!

Then when we consider the issue of niacin overload associated with things like obesity and diabetes, the plot thickens:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2874142/
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091222105449.htm

So, this is one important factor with chronic smoking: flora shift.
"Active smokers have a 30% to 40% higher risk of developing type 2 diabetes compared with nonsmokers, according to new data published in the Surgeon General's 50-year anniversary report on smoking."
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/819606
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/25/4/796.2.long
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/24/9/1590.long

And then when we consider how tryptophan metabolism relies on flora to convert tryptophan to serotonin (which converts to melatonin) and niacin, it adds to the idea that flora run the show.

And to think that a nicotine patch can halt seizure activity!

And if you're actually questioning my humility, I can't blame you as that's exactly how I feel about the pompous medical establishment continuously treating epilepsy from the neck up.

 

[kirsten]

We've also produced examples for how nicotine can be oxidized in the body.

We did?

This is the only thing I can think you might be mistaking for examples of nicotine oxidation in the body, and there are no examples of nicotine oxidation in the body in it. There really aren't any examples anywhere else in this thread.

I didn't know sulfuric acid may be a mechanism, how interesting considering it's a product of sulfur and sulfate-reducing bacteria (SRB) which are known high in autism, hence high neurotoxic propionic acid. SRBs produce hydrogen sulfide which can be oxidized to sulfuric acid. Hydrogen sulfide is also produced by the human body as a signaling molecule. Aerobic bacteria may oxidize hydrogen sulfide to produce sulfuric acid.
http://www.pnas.org/content/110/33/13582.long
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0417124708.htm

I'm bowing out again. This is just getting silly.

 

[kirsten]

There has been no real note of diet. see the info about one food here

There is way more evidence, and more compelling evidence, that diet is beneficial for health, than that supplements are. I do wonder why we spend so much time talking about supplements then, and so little on what we actually eat.

 

[Nakamova]

I do wonder why we spend so much time talking about supplements then, and so little on what we actually eat.

Perhaps a certain longing for a "quick-fix" no-brain solution...

BTW, nicotine does get oxidized in the body, but it does not turn into niacin. It turns into cotinine. The process happens mostly in the liver through the action of the P-450 cytochrome (an enzyme).

 

[Keith]

Thanks, Nakamova, that's fascinating about cotinine. Here's a study which points in the direction of cotinine related to nicotinamide which is what niacin is made into:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0006295277901563

This one takes it a step further showing how the metabolite of cotinine, norcotinine, gives rise to nicotinamide (niacinamide):
"The detection of nicotinamide in incubates of norcotinine . . . "
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF03190974
How interesting that they used phenobarbitone to induce CYP450.

Detection by radioimmunoassay of nicotinamide nucleotide analogues in tissues of rabbits injected with nicotine and cotinine
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0006295277901575

And here's a 2012 paper about UV detection of the related structures nicotine (NIC), cotinine (COT), nicotinic acid (NA), and nicotinamide
(NM)]:
http://chromsci.oxfordjournals.org/content/50/2/151.long


kirsten, I agree, let food be thy medicine. I'm especially interested in the low carb diets, resistant starches, fermented foods and intermittent fasting. These and the ketogenic diet have been discussed in this thread.