Multivitamins

[resaebiunne]

I'm putting this in the lounge since it's not specifically epilepsy related.

I'm curious what multivitamins do you all take and if anyone knows about multivitamins that might be more suited for people with E. There are so many different multivitamins on the market that it's really hard to know what is best to take. They all have different combinations of vitamins and at different strengths so it seems like an impossible task to figure out what is best. What do you all think?

 

[epileric]

From what I've read, most vitamins have minimal effect and can have various bad effects if taken in large doses.

Whatever you take make sure you are aware of the recommended daily intake.

http://www.lenntech.com/recommended-daily-intake.htm

 

[Blonde Angel]

I take Lifestream Natures Multi Advanced.
It's 100% super foods, frees of artificial additives and filters, suitable for vegetarians, guaranteed free from all genetically engineered ingredients.. Highly bioavailable.

Natural whole foods are better than isolated synthetic vitamins, that can be hard for the body to absorb. www.lifestream.co.nz

 

[AlohaBird]

Eric has a point when you are talking about synthetic supplements. People often overdo one component or the other when the balance between them and the synergistic functioning is what is important. Exactly how this happens and exactly what are the perfect ratios, we really are only beginning to scratch the surface of understanding.

I'm not sure any "multi " has got that one down but if I had to pick I would say that moringa capsules are the most broad spectrum of nutrition I have ever seen. It is one plant that has all the amino acids, all the electrolytes, all the anti-oxidants, the whole range of B vitamins plus more calcium than milk and more vitamin A than carrots. It's a truly remarkable tree. Give it a google.

The only supplements I take are actual foods, fish oil, turmeric, moringa leaves and pods, coconut oil and water, noni juice, and a probiotic. Oh, I do take magnesium but that has a clear benefit for my headaches and helps me fall asleep.

I think if you feed your body very nutrient dense foods, maximum nutrition for minimum calories, your body is smart enough to take from that what it needs in the right ratios and make use of it.

 

[seagull]

I tried most things I usually give up as I feel no different..i would like to know if melatoin is bad or good all I know they don't work

 

[AlohaBird]

I tried most things I usually give up as I feel no different..i would like to know if melatoin is bad or good all I know they don't work

Some people with e find melatonin very helpful but others, like me, find that it actually causes seizures. So, be careful with that. Some good info came up in this thread.

http://www.coping-with-epilepsy.com/forums/f23/melatonin-cautionary-tale-24793/

 

[resaebiunne]

From what I've read, most vitamins have minimal effect and can have various bad effects if taken in large doses.

Whatever you take make sure you are aware of the recommended daily intake.

http://www.lenntech.com/recommended-daily-intake.htm

I'm not sure if this advice is taking into effect the ability of the body to asorb limited amounts of a given substance. All of those numbers are awfully low in respect to the daily amounts provided by my current multivitamin, yet I have never felt any "bad effects" from taking this (or any other) vitamin. I am also concerned by the certainty of these results. Most of the values are the results of what could be summed up as "educated guesses" at best. The current state of medical research on what the body needs in regards to vitamins and minerals is a "best guess" institution. Please excuse my personal ignorance, I'm not going to claim to be educated in this area (but why should I educate myself in something so poorly understood in the first place?? Sorry, that's not me).

Personally I have no interest in things like melatonin, but things like magnesium taurate supplements and coconut oil are of interest. I am mainly interested because of their supposed anti-epilepsy qualities. I do not suggest nor am I aware of any conclusive evidence regarding these supposed qualities, but they are of interest nevertheless.

I believe that taking a multivitamin can only be helpful because it makes up for the lack of a balanced diet (no diet is ever perfect, and I'm not superman). I also notice that my multivitamin is lacking in certain areas (magnesium being one of them). I have come to learn that there are different types of vitamins (artificial and whole food types), and different dosages (i.e., some multivitamins are single pills taken once a day, and others are multiple pills taken 2 or 3 times a day). I would rather take the highest quality, whole food based vitamin multiple times a day than a single shot style vitamin which isn't going to be absorbed as well into the body.

That's really all I have to contribute to this thread so far. Now please, I want your thoughts and suggestions.

 

[AlohaBird]

Yes, the RDA numbers are educated guesses at best. They do not take into account things like nutrient malabsorption caused by many AEDs. They are also about finding the amount of a given nutrient that you need to not have any adverse deficiency symptoms. So they are about surviving more than about thriving.

Magnesium is vital to life and so many people with and without e are not getting enough of it. I take Magnesium L-Threonate which is a new variety of Mg that is able to cross the blood brain barrier and so may be of more use to people with e. Some good info was contributed to this thread.

http://www.coping-with-epilepsy.com/forums/f23/revisiting-magnesium-25241/

This is from WebMD about Moringa, not from a site trying to sell you some. But it is available on Amazon.

http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-suppl...ngredientId=1242&activeIngredientName=MORINGA

 

[Zara-Newman]

I take general vitamins for vegetarians.
I also have a protein mix that I have once daily, I started this because I was working out after an injury, but I found that I felt a little better for it generally - so I have kept it in my routine.


Something that I would recommend is taking calcium supplements, often epilepsy medication thins bones and supplements can help this.

I didn't find out about this until after I had fallen and broke my knee, two surgeries and 8 months in a wheelchair later my GP tells me I nearly have osteoporosis, at 22 because of my tablets (topirimate and lamotrogine)

So calcium is a must in my opinion.
But as long as you are having a well rounded diet any other vitamins wouldn't get absorbed anyway, they just come out in your pee...

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[resaebiunne]

My magnesium taurate supplements have arrived and I promptly took one. I also ordered Niacin (a friend got me into that one) and find it odd that even though I took the Niacin about 2 hours ago I am only just now getting a Niacin rush. I also find it odd that the Magnesium Taurate bottle says that 125mg of Mag is only 30% of the daily value. I'm a little concerned to take too much of the stuff considering. Also, I have an appointment with my Neurologist tomorrow and will mention that I am taking the Niacin and Mag supplements for good measure. I have also picked up some coconut oil (from CVS no less) and have been taking it for about 5 days now. Yesturday I took the coconut oil before work and I didn't feel hungry like I normally do (I don't eat breakfast). I notice that about 30 minutes after I eat the coconut oil I start to feel almost euphoric, sort of like an anxious feeling almost. I will slowly work my way up in dosage of the coconut oil as I don't want to experience any disaster pants, especially at work.

 

[AlohaBird]

That euphoria you are feeling, my friend, is your metabolism beginning to embrace ketosis. Imagine feeling that way all the time. Yes, it is possible.

p.s. Niacin is one of the B vitamins and is really great for you. But you might want to consider getting a full spectrum of the B vitamins. They work better when taken together.

 

[masterjen]

Testing of vitamin B levels should be done first to determine if one really needs to supplement any of the B vitamins and if so which ones.
For example: Niacin overdose can be dangerous, and can cause liver damage and stroke. Too much B12 can cause under-absorption of AEDs, GI problems, aggravation of certain heart problems, may lower blood potassium levels, etc. And this doesn't include other B vitamins that are contained in a B complex vitamin.
For some people they should not be initiating a ketogenic diet without checking with their doctor to ensure that it is safe for them. Not everyone's body can handle this type of condition/diet.

 

[AlohaBird]

Testing of vitamin B levels should be done first to determine if one really needs to supplement any of the B vitamins and if so which ones.
For example: Niacin overdose can be dangerous, and can cause liver damage and stroke. Too much B12 can cause under-absorption of AEDs, GI problems, aggravation of certain heart problems, may lower blood potassium levels, etc. And this doesn't include other B vitamins that are contained in a B complex vitamin.

Exactly. This is why I was saying it would be advisable to try a more broad spectrum of several vitamins at reasonable doses as opposed to mega dosing any one or two. Testing would be nice if one has access to such things. I don't.

This is also why I advocate taking real food supplements as opposed to synthetic lab creations whenever possible. As hunter-gatherers, our lives would have involved literally feast/famine cycles. We need to be able to absorb and store nutrients when they are abundant.

All the nutrient toxicity studies out there are all about taking mega doses of synthetic pills, not about eating liver with a moringa salad on the side (the two most nutrient dense foods I know of). I think when our bodies see real food coming in, they recognize it better than a synthetic, they absorb it better and, if there is extra maybe it gets stored. I know it doesn't become toxic.

For some people they should not be initiating a ketogenic diet without checking with their doctor to ensure that it is safe for them. Not everyone's body can handle this type of condition/diet.

In case you missed it upthread, he is just adding a bit of coconut oil to his diet. He is not doing a ketogenic diet. One can become metabolically more flexible, able to go from glucose to ketone burning more easily, without being "on a ketogenic diet". But don't harsh on his keto-buzz. It can be fun.

 

[epileric]

Yes, the RDA numbers are educated guesses at best. They do not take into account things like nutrient malabsorption caused by many AEDs. They are also about finding the amount of a given nutrient that you need to not have any adverse deficiency symptoms. So they are about surviving more than about thriving.

Many people make that mistake of thinking that because a little bit of something is good for us, lots must be better. The body works best when vitamins, minerals etc are at a certain level. Too much is just as bad as too little. I've also seen that fallacy used to sell vitamins but it's just not accurate in how our bodies work.

Also, a larger dose for people with malabsorption is of no use. If they don't absorb the supplements, taking a larger dose will do no good. That's how malabsorption works.

My grandfather is a great example. He couldn't absorb B-12 and no matter how much B-12 he'd take orally would make no difference. He needed it to be injected.

This is from WebMD about Moringa, not from a site trying to sell you some. But it is available on Amazon.

http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-suppl...ngredientId=1242&activeIngredientName=MORINGA

Thanks for the link to WebMD. It does have a long list of "uses" for it but at the top it says:

Insufficient Evidence for:

which means that as of yet there is no evidence to show Moringa does those things.

It also says:

There isn’t enough information to know if moringa is safe when used in medicinal amounts.
Special Precautions & Warnings:
Pregnancy and breast-feeding: It’s LIKELY UNSAFE to use the root, bark or flowers of moringa if you are pregnant. Chemicals in the root, bark, and flowers can make the uterus contract, and this might cause a miscarriage. There is not enough information available about the safety of using other parts of moringa during pregnancy. Stay on the safe side and avoid use.

Moringa is sometimes used to increase breast milk production. Some research suggests it might do this, however, there isn’t enough information to know if it is safe for the nursing infant. Therefore, it is best to avoid moringa if you are breast-feeding.

so please be careful with it if pregnant.

 

[seagull]

Some people with e find melatonin very helpful but others, like me, find that it actually causes seizures. So, be careful with that. Some good info came up in this thread.

http://www.coping-with-epilepsy.com/forums/f23/melatonin-cautionary-tale-24793/

I can only get them when I come to States or I get other people bring them in for me...Some hospitals give it to children helps sedate them before surgery but I guess that's the highly strong stuff

 

[AlohaBird]

Many people make that mistake of thinking that because a little bit of something is good for us, lots must be better. The body works best when vitamins, minerals etc are at a certain level. Too much is just as bad as too little. I've also seen that fallacy used to sell vitamins but it's just not accurate in how our bodies work.

Something higher than the RDA dose =/=mega dosing at unsafe levels. The RDA levels are not maximum tolerance levels, they are minimum subsistence levels.

Also, a larger dose for people with malabsorption is of no use. If they don't absorb the supplements, taking a larger dose will do no good. That's how malabsorption works.

My grandfather is a great example. He couldn't absorb B-12 and no matter how much B-12 he'd take orally would make no difference. He needed it to be injected.

This is true for some individuals with some severe nutrients malabsorption disorders but not for all. It is not true of the broad spectrum general nutrient malabsorption due to AEDS.

It is also a good reason why I find alternatives to pills whenever possible. There are others methods that don't involve needles such as transdermal patches and transdermal liquids. For some people in some cases however the shots are necessary.

I don't think that's what the OP was asking about however. Th OP was asking about general nutrition supplementation, not mega dosing and not any pernicious anemia type of condition.

Thanks for the link to WebMD. It does have a long list of "uses" for it but at the top it says: which means that as of yet there is no evidence to show Moringa does those things.

It also says: so please be careful with it if pregnant.

It says not to eat the roots bark, or flowers if pregnant. Nobody eats that stuff anyway. The leaves and pods are the parts of the moringa tree generally consumed. If one bought a moringa supplement, it would be just the leaves.

"Pregnancy and breast-feeding: It’s LIKELY UNSAFE to use the root, bark or flowers of moringa if you are pregnant."
That is the full WebMD quote about it. ^^^

What was that that was said on another thread about fear mongering through selective presentation of evidence?

There is lots and lots of evidence that it works and is safe consisting of tens of thousands of people eating it for thousands of years on a regular basis.

There is no denying that the vitamins are actually in the plant.

But this is an example of very good scientifically valid information that will never rise to the "gold standard" that western medicine considers to be evidence.

It'a a plant. It grows like crazy. Everywhere but Bernard's backyard, right B? (He's been trying to get some started for a while now).

Since it is so ubiquitous, it is not something that is ever going to be patented and make anyone a lot of money. So nobody funds a double blind...etc study about it.

Has anyone ever done a "gold standard "study on spinach? Probably not. Is it still good for you? Definitely. Moringa is more common than spinach in this part of the world.

 

[resaebiunne]

Well I spoke to my neurologist today about the supplements. She was okay with my usage of the coconut oil and magnesium, and was okay with my usage of niacin. I will use the niacin occasionally (not everyday) as there isn't a particular antiepileptic benefit to it.

 

[AngelaVA]

IDK with regards to epilepsy but we have been happy with Garden of Life multivitamins. We also use their raw protein powder.


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[AlohaBird]

Well I spoke to my neurologist today about the supplements. She was okay with my usage of the coconut oil and magnesium, and was okay with my usage of niacin. I will use the niacin occasionally (not everyday) as there isn't a particular antiepileptic benefit to it.

Good. Next time you see her, ask her how she feels about turmeric.

 

[epileric]

Something higher than the RDA dose =/=mega dosing at unsafe levels. The RDA levels are not maximum tolerance levels, they are minimum subsistence levels.

I didn’t say that going above the RDA was unsafe. I agree they are not the maximum your body could tolerate but ingesting the maximum tolerated levels is stressful to the body. What I said was that our bodies work best when such vitamins/minerals are at an optimum level/dose without going above what your body can use.
That said, many supplements do have harmful effects when the dose is too large. That’s why there is a defined Tolerable upper intake level.

Here's a site with a list of the various problems from over-dosage from certain supplements. http://www.lenntech.com/recommended-daily-intake.htm

This is true for some individuals with some severe nutrients malabsorption disorders but not for all. It is not true of the broad spectrum general nutrient malabsorption due to AEDS.

Are you sure? I haven’t been able to find anywhere that said that. Can you cite your source?

It says not to eat the roots bark, or flowers if pregnant. Nobody eats that stuff anyway. The leaves and pods are the parts of the moringa tree generally consumed. If one bought a moringa supplement, it would be just the leaves.

Actually, people do eat other parts of the plant. For that reason I’d be very careful that there is not roots, bark or flowers when buying a supplement. Here’s an example of just one site that tells people to eat those.

Not only is M. oleifera highly nutritious, but every single part of the tree has been used for beneficial purposes. In India, its leaves, bark, fruit, flowers, seeds and root are regularly used to make medicine

https://www.naturallybetterclinics.com/the-mystery-of-moringa/

"Pregnancy and breast-feeding: It’s LIKELY UNSAFE to use the root, bark or flowers of moringa if you are pregnant."
That is the full WebMD quote about it. ^^^

What was that that was said on another thread about fear mongering through selective presentation of evidence?

I posted the whole quote and never said it was any more than that so despite your claim I was not selective (who's being selective now?). Personally I see pointing out dangers in supplements as contributing to peoples safety. Nothing wrong with that.

There is lots and lots of evidence that it works and is safe consisting of tens of thousands of people eating it for thousands of years on a regular basis.

There is no denying that the vitamins are actually in the plant.

I never said it didn’t have vitamins, I pointed out that your link said it was not a proven cure for a long list maladies. You say it works but can you cite any studies, experiments or any better evidence than preliminary in vitro or rodent experiments? Also, many times we've discovered that what we habitually eat & assumed to be completely healthy were not. For that reason we should not assume that because something has been eaten for a long period of time that it is automatically good.

Your claim of the evidence being that it worked for a long time is a fallacy known as the appeal to antiquity. If that’s the evidence you’re referring to then that is anecdote, not scientific evidence. I know you’re aware of that because you’ve mentioned this fallacy before on CWE.


http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/logical-fallacies/appeal-to-antiquity-or-tradition/

But this is an example of very good scientifically valid information that will never rise to the "gold standard" that western medicine considers to be evidence.

I’m a bit confused. You say there is lots of “very good scientifically valid information” but then you say that it will never meet the standard of western medicine- which is all based on scientifically valid information. This makes no sense to me. I am aware of some very preliminary studies but being so preliminary they shouldn’t be given too much weight yet. To be “very good” it must have been tested in a double-blind study & have the results duplicated by an unassociated lab.

It'a a plant. It grows like crazy. Everywhere but Bernard's backyard, right B? (He's been trying to get some started for a while now).

Since it is so ubiquitous, it is not something that is ever going to be patented and make anyone a lot of money. So nobody funds a double blind...etc study about it.

Has anyone ever done a "gold standard "study on spinach? Probably not. Is it still good for you? Definitely. Moringa is more common than spinach in this part of the world.

Also, you claim that there have probably not been any double blind tests (I’m assuming that’s what you mean by “gold standard”) on Moringa. That’s like saying “it hasn’t been proven not to work so it must” makes no sense to me. By the way, they have done studies on spinach for ATP formation, Serum antioxidant capacity , and numerous other things. As for Moringa, they have analyzed it and yes…. It does have vitamins & minerals but from what I can tell, as of yet all studies are either in vitro or in rats/mice.