Clarification on psychogenic seizures

[AndrewIrish]

Hey all I have a question. These psychogenic seizures as I understand them(and to be honest I don't, it's a little confusing) they're a psychological disorder or mental illness? They have no physiological basis so people either consciously or subconsciously have "fake" seizures? I don't mean to insult anyone with the question I'm just confused as to wether those seizures are a mental illness or not.

 

[AndrewIrish]

And while im on the subject what exactly is a simPle partial? Would I even know I'd be having those ?

 

[Nakamova]

Simple Partials are seizures where there are unusual sensory experiences, but no loss of consciousness. An example would be a phantom smell, or a strong sense of deja vu, but they can really take a wide variety of forms. If they proceed to become seizures with loss of consciousness, then they are called "auras". You can read more about the many different kinds of simple partials here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_partial_seizure and here: http://www.epilepsy.com/EPILEPSY/seizure_simplepartial

Psychogenic seizures are considered a psychological disorder along the lines of PTSD. The idea is that stress (rather than abnormal brainwaves) causes the physical hallmarks of a seizure: convulsions, loss of consciousness, etc. The physical symptoms are quite real. People with PNES aren't considered to be "faking" them -- no more than someone with anxiety would be considered to be "faking" anxiety.

Psychogenic seizures are not that well understood, and it can be confusing because some people seem to have both psychogenic and epileptic seizures. There is no definitive test for psychogenic seizures -- neurologists tend to diagnose them when folks are having seizures that don't register on the EEG.

 

[Chaz1]

interesting read

 

[thornton8000]

with PNES they generally will do a VEEG test, if a eeg or an aeeg comes back normal i had to swith neurosto finally get a dx of seizures and pnes not just pnes, and it took almost 2 years! so most of my seizures are controlled with AED'S and the others cant be since PNES cannot be controlled with AED'S, but other therapies have worked for other people, talk docs, ect.. i dont remember them all (had a bad seizure this morning and still having brain fog 9 hours later).
Good luck never stop looking things up and check the sources of web pages you reead from some will contridict each other and others will support each other lol depending on how new or old the info is.

Mike

 

[CQ:)]

Hey all I have a question. These psychogenic seizures as I understand them(and to be honest I don't, it's a little confusing) they're a psychological disorder or mental illness? They have no physiological basis so people either consciously or subconsciously have "fake" seizures? I don't mean to insult anyone with the question I'm just confused as to wether those seizures are a mental illness or not.

Thanks for bringing this question up Andrew.
My seizures were always epileptic seizures so the more I read about people experiencing Psychogenic seizures I started to get curious about them.

 

[momof3boys]

I have simple partial seizures, and Im consious through out them. I get this weird feeling that something isnt right... followed by heart begins to race, my stomach feels like Im going to throw up, and left hand and foot get needle like feelings in them, and that feeling spreads up my entire body to my face, where it feels like a million needles are attacking the roof of my mouth. I get a feeling of fear and my head turns to the right, and my body begins to stiffen and jerk. Im aware of whats going on, and I can hear what others are asking me, but I wait to respond to the people after the seizure is over. Ive tried to respond during, and the feeling of the needles get so intense when I try to respond back, that I cant take it. So I dont respond til the seizure is over with. Once the seizure is over, I feel weak, sore and tired. My head does hurt, Ive had it where it was a really intense seizure and my head would really throb afterwords. But the average or smaller seizures, my head doesnt throb, but just feels like a headache. Ive had complex partial seizures and grand mal seizures for years before having the simple partials. To be honest, Id rather not be consious during a seizure, rather than be consious, because the feelings you get during a simple partial seizure is just terriable. Like I told my mom, I would do anything not to be consious during a seizure.

As for PNES, I have done some research on them myself since my VEEG in March 2011, when my neuro thought I was having PNES and come to find out they dont classify them as a mental illness. Based on what the psych dr I saw, she told me this. But in my case, my neuro thought what he was seeing during my VEEG was my body being so use to having seizures all my life, that I was having PNES, since my body has been having seizures since I was an infant. But come to find out, My seizures are just too deep in the brain for all the seizures to be picked up by an EEG.

 

[LJ-Bain]

I always was worried about offending people if I talked about my pnes too much.
Well, my supposed pnes. There are so many of you suffering with your tonic/clonics and simple partials and complex partials that I wondered if non epileptic seizures were considered by some to be complaining about a papercut.
You can't help having non epileptic seizures. You can't even tell them apart via the naked eye, for the most part. I have stumped doctors each time. The eegs get that honour of making the distinction.
The sad part is that even though it is a psychological disorder, some people have never even heard of it. Even in the mental health world as I have discoverd. It's supposed to be almost as prevalent as MS but it's all hush hush.

 

[julie wishes]

I was just reading this the other day. Non-epileptic seizues...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-epileptic_seizure

Its interesting because this site says that non epileptic seizures can be PHYSIOLOGIC or PSYCHOGENIC. But it didn't explain the physiologic part too well. So still unclear. But it gave a link to the psychogenic ones and explained those quite well.

 

[Nakamova]

The wikipedia entry lists "Possible pathophysiological causes" for non-epileptic seizures:

Benign paroxysmal positional vertigo
Breath-holding spells of childhood
Cataplexy
Hyperekplexia, also called startle syndrome
Hypoglycemia and associated neuroglycopenia
Migraine
Narcolepsy
Non-epileptic myoclonus
Opsoclonus
Parasomnias, including night terrors
Paroxysmal kinesiogenic dyskinesia
Reflex anoxic seizures
Primary central nervous system lymphoma
Repetitive or ritualistic behaviours
Syncope (fainting)
Tics

These are all things that share symptoms with seizures, but are not generated by abnormally brainwaves.

 

[pita300]

I just finished a week long video EEG a few weeks ago. Although the epileptolgist said there is activity on the left. When Id have what I think was a seizures he was telling me it could'nt possibly be since it was'nt showing on the EEG. Now starting tomorrow I see a therapist along with a neuro psycholgist. I cant wait to see what a therapist is going to tell me.onder: I have also heard of people who have had seizure all thier life then they are controlled and the mind does'nt know how to handle life with out a seizures. So it makes up for it by having non-epileptic seizures. So I go 15 years with out a seizure and now my mind misses them? :bigmouth:

I will keep you all posted on this journey and let you know everything I learn about them.

 

[Nakamova]

yes, definitely let us know how it goes.

 

[momof3boys]

I just finished a week long video EEG a few weeks ago. Although the epileptolgist said there is activity on the left. When Id have what I think was a seizures he was telling me it could'nt possibly be since it was'nt showing on the EEG. Now starting tomorrow I see a therapist along with a neuro psycholgist. I cant wait to see what a therapist is going to tell me.onder: I have also heard of people who have had seizure all thier life then they are controlled and the mind does'nt know how to handle life with out a seizures. So it makes up for it by having non-epileptic seizures. So I go 15 years with out a seizure and now my mind misses them? :bigmouth:

I will keep you all posted on this journey and let you know everything I learn about them.

Yes, for sure let us know what they say. I had a VEEG done in march 2011, and had activity show up, but when my dr saw me having a seizure on the video, nothing was showing up at times on the EEG. Which made him to beleive I was having Non-epileptic seizures. I did see a psych dr, who after many appointments, confirmed that after being put back on the Keppra, no more seizures occured, and she said if they were in need non epileptic seizures, the Keppra wouldnt stop them. But again, I had no seizure after being put back on the Keppra. So, after that, Ive been doing good since. I see my nuero at the end of August next.

 

[pita300]

I am still on Tegretol. They had started me on Lamictal in March and was almost to the 300 mg dose per day. Then the Video EEG they took me completely off of the Lamictal. They did'nt back me off of the Tegretol because they know I'll have a T/C and they were not looking for that. They were trying to catch the simple partials I've been having. 2nd night I was there my left foot starts getting stiff and points straight up. Then the muscles contract and start mooving up my leg up my body to my head which turns to the right. The doctor looked at the video and said it sure looked like a seizure (ya think) but there was no activity on the EEG. I had aleast 4 more in the hosptial but after the second one I felt like the doctors did'nt want to see that so I quit pushing the button. I really hope the activity is either really deep or in the frontal lobe and not in my head. I already feel like people think i'm "faking" it. I know they don't I just left the hosptial so discouraged that thats how it feels. I have appointments with the terapist and neuro psych tomorrow and then Epileptolgist on the 5th. I will post updates tomorrow.

 

[julie wishes]

The wikipedia entry lists "Possible pathophysiological causes" for non-epileptic seizures:

Benign paroxysmal positional vertigo
Breath-holding spells of childhood
Cataplexy
Hyperekplexia, also called startle syndrome
Hypoglycemia and associated neuroglycopenia
Migraine
Narcolepsy
Non-epileptic myoclonus
Opsoclonus
Parasomnias, including night terrors
Paroxysmal kinesiogenic dyskinesia
Reflex anoxic seizures
Primary central nervous system lymphoma
Repetitive or ritualistic behaviours
Syncope (fainting)
Tics

These are all things that share symptoms with seizures, but are not generated by abnormally brainwaves.

Thank you... I guess as usual I didn't read and interpret that correctly... happens a lot with this new brain of mine

 

[huskymom]

Okay, I have both. When I was in the hospital for my video eeg in May, I had a seizure that turned out to be non-epileptic because of the eeg showing no changes. However, my new doctor, whom is awesome by the way, looked it over again and saw signs of epileptic seizure activity. She also told me that she treats a lot of people with non-epileptic seizures. She treats them the same way, because for intent and purposes, they are the same. She also said that the non-epileptic ones, in her opinion, are mostly stress related, and she suggests finding ways to deal with that more effectivaly. Stress management classes seam to be popular. Anyway, she also told me that your brain gets used to the epileptic activity and that as that builds up, you can have a non-epileptic event. Confusing enough for you? Me too! We just all need to support each other and sit by the campfire with our s'mores and sing Kum-by-ya

 

[julie wishes]

... and wait for the medical folks to figure out what we already know

 

[Nakamova]

I had a seizure that turned out to be non-epileptic because of the eeg showing no changes. However, my new doctor, whom is awesome by the way, looked it over again and saw signs of epileptic seizure activity.

See, this is the part that makes me question the "non-epileptic" diagnosis (at least in some cases). Docs rely on the EEG (which can be flawed), and their own interpretation skills (which can also be flawed), to make what are often considered to be "definitive" diagnoses. The folks who get mis-diagnosed one way or another can then have a hard time finding the right treatment or combination of treatments (not too mention the frustrations in navigating their healthcare system once they've been labeled.)

 

[huskymom]

I agree. The system itself relies on the human factor, which is only as good as the human!