H pylori and Epilepsy?

[elizzza811]

I hope I didn't post this before, but what do you think?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17126040

I know I was exposed to this bacteria because it's thought to be transmitted from mother to child, and my mom suffered with a duodenal ulcer her entire life. Back then they didn't know that ulcers were caused by h pylori though.

Also, there is a possible link between epilepsy and gum disease, and I have gum disease. And apparently dilantin can cause all sorts of gum issues. Coincidence? I'm going to beg my dentist to test me for h pylori, even if I have to pay for the test out of pocket.

 

[Endless]

Amazon.com has absolutely EVERYTHING.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Rapid-Response-Pylori-Test-Tests/dp/B001DD04HC"]Amazon.com: Rapid Response H. Pylori Test Kit, 15 Tests/Kit: Health & Personal Care@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21UjpCJqeiL.@@AMEPARAM@@21UjpCJqeiL[/ame]

All you have to do is a little finger stick, and give a little blood to the cause.

On the other hand, read this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-417715/Home-testing-kits-test.html

 

[Nakamova]

Several studies have suggested a link between h. pylori and epilepsy. Not everyone with that bacteria has epilepsy of course, but a statistically significant number of people with epilepsy do have it, and/or show the inflammation associated with it. A possible theory is that h. pylori malabsorption problems in the gut can lead to imbalances in brain chemistry. If you're getting tested for the presence of the bacteria, then you may want to ask your doctors about getting a full nutritional work-up to check for absorption issues and/or imbalances.

 

[epileric]

I don't know about the other papers but if they're done as poorly as this one I don't think there's much reason to worry about H. Pylori.

First of all the difference between the control group & the study group was huge. 35 in one & 47 in the other. That's a 15% difference.

Secondly there's no mention of how the people were chosen. Were ones of the same age, race, class geographic location etc. evenly divided in both groups. All those things can influence the likelihood of having H. Pylori.

thirdly there was no mention of checking for previous symptoms of ulcers. If one group has more ulcers they would be more likely to have something like H. Pylori.

I wouldn't take this too seriously & I would look for such things in other studies. Just taking a bunch of epileptics & seeing if they compare to a bunch of non-epileptics doesn't make it even. They subjects still have to be equal in all other ways.

 

[Nakamova]

Given that about half the world's population have h. pylori in their stomachs, it may take quite a few studies to establish a link -- if there is one. There are a few more studies out there though, referenced in http://www.ispub.com/journal/the_in...rological_and_ophthalmological_disorders.html

This study http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1468-2982.2000.00077.x/full suggests that people infected with h. pylori are at a greater risk for migraine with aura.

And in this study, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17669102 eradicating h. pylori in patients infected with it significantly reduced migraine symptoms.

There are also preliminary studies suggesting a link between h.pylori and other neurological issues such as Alzheimers, Parkinsons and MS.

 

[epileric]

Given that about half the world's population have h. pylori in their stomachs, it may take quite a few studies to establish a link

If this is true then something is definitely wrong since much less than the control group had H. Pylori & the test group had just under average.

-- if there is one. There are a few more studies out there though, referenced in http://www.ispub.com/journal/the_in...rological_and_ophthalmological_disorders.html

I see them referenced. I just hope they're done better than this first one.

This study http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1468-2982.2000.00077.x/full suggests that people infected with h. pylori are at a greater risk for migraine with aura.

Actually this study looks like it says they found nothing.

The prevalence of H. pylori infection was similar in migraine patients and in controls (40% vs. 39%, respectively). Among migraine patients, prevalence of infection was not related to presence or absence of aura (45% vs. 37%, respectively).

Even amongst the CagA strain they found the same results in both groups (41 vs 19 & 41 vs. 17)

However, among infected subjects, a significantly higher prevalence of CagA-positive strains was observed in patients affected by migraine with aura when compared with those affected by migraine without aura (41% vs. 19%, P < 0.01) and with controls (41% vs. 17%, P < 0.01)

This study looks more like they are trying to twist the results. Something else to be suspicious of is when studies create sub-groups like this one did. They started out doing a study on H. Pylori then divided it into smaller groups that study CagA. That is often done to manipulate results. The only way to know if this was intended to be done initially is to read the hypothesis.

And in this study, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17669102 eradicating h. pylori in patients infected with it significantly reduced migraine symptoms.

There are also preliminary studies suggesting a link between h.pylori and other neurological issues such as Alzheimers, Parkinsons and MS.

Again, this says there was a study, what it aims to show and how the results were read but says nothing of what or how the study wad done.

I think you're right that there are preliminary studies suggesting that H. pylori is associated to other diseases but as you said, they are preliminary & hence have not shown any definite association as of yet.

 

[elizzza811]

Endless, thank you for that Amazon link! I had no idea you could purchase those kits on Amazon, though if it were to come back negative I'd still want a doctor to test me for it. And doctors would probably have to test me for it themselves anyway, even if it did come back positive, just to confirm.

And Nakamova, thanks for all those study links too. I'm not at all surprised by the results of those studies.

But epileric, I'm not giving up on this yet, no matter how skeptical you remain. All these years I've been telling doctors that Klonopin was the only medication that ever helped my 'anxiety' and that antibiotics were the only thing that ever helped any of my other symptoms. Then when my doctors began refusing me both Klonopin and antibiotics, my gums started to literally dissolve on me overnight.

Now I've been reading about how Dilantin can cause gum overgrowth, especially in gum tissue located in the front of the mouth. And though I'm not taking Dilantin and my gums aren't 'overgrowing', the gums affected by this severe gum recession are all located in the front of my mouth! And somehow I just can't view that as a mere coincidence.

Again, the gums surrounding my back teeth (molars, etc...) are pretty much unaffected. The only gums affected are the gums along my upper and lower front teeth, though the bottom front is much worse than the top. Here is a picture of my teeth/gums. See for yourself.

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee416/cem0204/GreyCoatingonTeeth-1.jpg

I've also had enough gastrointestinal symptoms along the way here for my weight to drop well into the 'anorexic' range, two colonoscopies in recent years, upper GIs...nothing ever found to explain these symptoms. And though Lamictal has helped some in the 'stool' department, my stools still aren't 'normal' by any means and a lot of my GI symptoms still persist...like persistent hunger and stomach growling, even when I've just eaten.

To back these suspicions up even further, I was on a multitude of antibiotics for chronic Lyme, and though most doctors don't believe in chronic Lyme and even I'm beginning to have my doubts since some symptoms remain untouched in spite of years of antibiotics for it, some of the antibiotics used to treat my Lyme actually did help somewhat. Clarithromycin was one the definitely helped (while I was on it, at least). Metronidazole was another good one for me for a while there. But I don't believe I was ever on both of these antibiotics at the same time or any of the other antibiotic 'combos' used to treat an h pylori infection.

Plus, I had exposure. My mom suffered with ulcers her entire life. It took a doctor who was willing to infect himself with this bacteria and give himself ulcers to prove to his skeptics that this bacteria was indeed the culprit behind ulcers. So for that reason alone, I'm not skeptical at all that there's something to these studies.

Finally, I keep telling my neurologist over and over again that this sensation I feel in my lower jaw/teeth is a relentless tugging sensation that causes me to (unwillfully) clench my teeth 24/7. And I can't seem to convince her that this teeth-cracking clenching is related to my seizures, even when I tell her that it ALWAYS worsens exponentially before them.

 

[elizzza811]

Found this, too...

H pylori and Thyroid Disease:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10695561

My sister has thyroid disease, and she would have also been exposed to my mom's h pylori, so...?

 

[epileric]

Elizza,

I have not found any documentation that receding gums is associated with H. Pylori.Even you said it is only a possible link to epilepsy. Even if it were there, a link does not mean it is the cause. A link could mean that it's the medication or something else we don't know yet. I feel that you're jumping to conclusions.

I'm not arguing that you're having the symptoms you claim but the expression used when trying to interpret studies & experiments is "Correlation does not equal Causation".

Also, for the same reasons your previous study was poorly done so is this one. The control group differed in size by almost 25%-that's quite a lot. They also decided how to manipulate the experiment afterwards & they even admit this.

The study was partly designed retrospectively.

Scientific experiments should never be done that way. The whole point it to prove/disprove a theory and see what happens, not manipulate what happened to say what you want the experiment to say.

As well, we've got H. Pylori accused of being associated with Thyroid Disease, migraine with aura, epilepsy, gum disease & neurological issues. Doesn't it just make sense that the more things H. Pylori is associated with the more likely it is just to be correlation and not a cause to something else. Very few (if any) bacteria or viruses cause such a variety of diseases.

 

[elizzza811]

May I ask how you know so much about how studies should be conducted? Are you somehow involved in conducting studies? Are you a researcher?

I would think that whoever is responsible for setting up these studies (and those who pay for these studies) would take the time to set up an appropriate group of 'controls' as best they can and would take great care in considering how these results should be interpreted - and maybe even be kind enough point out where they might be jumping to conclusions. Obviously you can't 'control' ever aspect of a group of controls, and somehow I suspect that the studies linking h pylori to ulcers were equally as 'poorly conducted' (and unbelievable) as to cause a doctor to feel as if he needed to swallow the h pylori bacteria to 'prove' it caused stomach ulcers.

And perhaps if your gums were dissolving in your mouth, you would dive into the h pylori/gum disease and h pylori/seizure links with less skepticism, and perhaps even some hope? I'm aware that correlation does not equal causation, but somehow I get the impression that you've shot all h pylori/disease links out of the water based solely on some 'poorly conducted' study links posted in this thread. Have you looked for other (more properly conducted) h pylori/disease links that you might find more believable and weighed them against each other?

 

[epileric]

May I ask how you know so much about how studies should be conducted? Are you somehow involved in conducting studies? Are you a researcher?

I'm flattered you would ask, thanks but I'm not. I have always had an interest in science and I've grown up around scientists since my parents knew quite a few as friends. It made Fri. night dinners with them very interesting. I've also taken quite a few courses-mostly in biology so even if I don't know something I still have lots of medical references to look things up.

I would think that whoever is responsible for setting up these studies (and those who pay for these studies) would take the time to set up an appropriate group of 'controls' as best they can and would take great care in considering how these results should be interpreted - and maybe even be kind enough point out where they might be jumping to conclusions. Obviously you can't 'control' ever aspect of a group of controls, and somehow I suspect that the studies linking h pylori to ulcers were equally as 'poorly conducted' (and unbelievable) as to cause a doctor to feel as if he needed to swallow the h pylori bacteria to 'prove' it caused stomach ulcers.

Sadly not all studies are legit. There are many that do not stand up to the scrutiny of their colleagues & are eventually dismissed. There was one recently that was removed from the scientific journal it was posted in with a big hubbub because it was done so badly & he should have known better with his training.

For every study someone finds I can find one contradicting it. The only way to really figure who is right is to make sure that the studies are done properly. Here is an excellent site that explains exactly what to look for
Anatomy of a Study: A Dissection Guide

[URL="http://photoninthedarkness.com/"]Anatomy of a Study: A Dissection Guide (part 2)

[/URL]

And perhaps if your gums were dissolving in your mouth, you would dive into the h pylori/gum disease and h pylori/seizure links with less skepticism, and perhaps even some hope? I'm aware that correlation does not equal causation, but somehow I get the impression that you've shot all h pylori/disease links out of the water based solely on some 'poorly conducted' study links posted in this thread. Have you looked for other (more properly conducted) h pylori/disease links that you might find more believable and weighed them against each other?

I don't think I'd be in too much of a rush to find a cause if I had gum disease. I have E & finding the cause was never a big issue. What people have to be aware of when they have such diseases is that they lose your objectivity & are very quick to accept facts that may not be true. After all it I see numerous quacks selling supposed "cures" for everything to desperate people who believe their "cure" will work because they are so desperate & lost their objectivity. I see that as taking advantage of people.

 

[elizzza811]

For every study someone finds I can find one contradicting it.

So why do you always seem to believe the contradiction? Even if the study did have some flaws, that doesn't prove the study's conclusion is false. That's why more studies need to be done.

You were skeptical, too, about solar and geomagnetic storms being triggers for seizures, and I'd been checking Space Weather daily for years. A proven relationship?...no. But enough that might trigger some interest by researchers if they weren't brainwashed to be as skeptical as you.

I don't think I'd be in too much of a rush to find a cause if I had gum disease. I have E & finding the cause was never a big issue.

Knowing the cause of my gum disease and seizures is a big issue with me, and if there's information out there that might lend me some answers, I intend to suck it up like a sponge. And I see nothing wrong with this, especially since 'cures' often require 'causes', and cures are important to me. And dentures and anticonvulsants aren't really 'cures' in my eyes.

And perhaps you've forgotten, so I'll ask again...

Have you looked for other (more properly conducted) h pylori/disease links that you might find more believable and weighed them against each other?

 

[MarkyMark]

elizzza811, you also might want to check for herpes. I have gum troubles as well but I have linked it to having stomatitis (from herpes) This virus may also be responsible for my seizures