Terminology : "Epilepsy" vs. "Seizures"

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AlohaBird

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This post was inspired by the many threads started by newcomers with the big question being, "I have had X# of seizures in X# of days/weeks/months. Does that mean I have Epilepsy?"

The traditional definition of "epilepsy" has been 2 or more "unprovoked" seizures more than 24 hours apart. (I've seen a couple of different definitions of "unprovoked").

http://www.epilepsy.com/article/2014/4/revised-definition-epilepsy

This ^^^is an interesting look at the revised definition as stated by the International League Against Epilepsy last year.

It tries to clear up some of the terminology. Take a look and tell us what you think.


My personal opinion:

Saying a person "has" epilepsy tends to lead toward giving up (by both patients and doctors) on trying to find the root cause of the disorder. Saying a person is having or has had seizures is a medical description of the symptoms. It still begs the question of *Why* do the seizures happen? Hmm. Let's find out.

There are so many possible reasons why. Everything from scary stuff like brain tumors, brain damage/scar tissue, and blood vessel obstructions to things that are easily treatable like blood sugar fluctuations, electrolyte imbalances, or some specific nutrient deficiency. Or you could have sleep apnea if your seizures are at night or you could have an inner ear disorder or you might even have P.N.E.S. (http://www.coping-with-epilepsy.com/forums/f23/pnes-difficult-conversation-worth-having-25577/) and there is nothing organically "wrong" with your brain at all.

The point is to keep looking, keep learning. Labeling seizures where there is no readily apparent cause as "idiopathic epilepsy" is just a fancy way of saying, "We don't know". I understand that there are going to be some cases where we just don't know but what I wish would happen is that both patients and physicians would *try harder* to find out before just accepting the pronouncement of "I have epilepsy".

(An analogous example is the recently defined "Restless Leg Syndrome". This diagnosis is very descriptive of the symptoms but it doesn't tell you anything about the *why*. There are a lot of things that could cause restless legs at night but why look into them when the doc will give you a pill for RLS?")


Then there's the whole discussion in the above article about if we should call epilepsy a "Disease" or not. They are arguing for calling it a disease because this impresses the seriousness of it on the world. What does everybody think about that?


My preferred terminology is to say that I have a seizure disorder. "Epilepsy" for me is a convenient shorthand that some people understand better.

The way I look at it is that I have had some seizures and I am continuing to look into the reasons why so as to correct this disorder.

A disorder is something you correct and put back in order.
A disease is something you cure in some cases and manage the symptoms of in a whole lot of other cases. Seizure meds attempt to manage the symptoms. They don't cure anything. (Nobody ever had a seizure disorder the root cause of which was a Keppra deficiency.)

I want to make it clear that I am not "anti" medication. I know they can be very valuable in getting symptoms under control giving a person and their doctor enough breathing room to look for the underlying cause. And I realize that, for some people, the meds are just necessary. Full stop.

So I really don't want this thread to go down that rabbit hole. Please.

When I first started having seizures I didn't have the resources available today the biggest of which is the net (yes, kiddies, there was a time before teh webz).
My neurologist said, "Thou hast Epilepsy and thou shalt take this medication forever and ever. Amen." This was after I had had one seizure. I was a scared senseless 22 year old kid. Looking back, I really wish that both my neurologist and I had dug a whole lot deeper.

I think calling the symptoms seizures encourages that digging. Saying, "You have epilepsy", doesn't.


You could say, "What's in a name?" but I think it matters. The terminology frames the discussion and subsequently the actions.
 
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Have to disagree. For me there is a distinctive difference between the terms having epilepsy and having seizures (or a 'seizure disorder', sounds 'better' but means the same.)

Having seizures is not necessary the same as having epilepsy, seizures don't always occur when one 'has epilepsy' (or an epilepsy syndrome.)

I do know so many children (and their parents) who actually never have had any seizures (and maybe will never have.)
But they do have an epilepsy syndrome with (continuous or nocturnal) epileptic brain activity with all the negative consequences for their development, behaviour, learning abilities etc.

F.i. CSWS (Continuous Spikes and Waves during Sleep), Maligne Rolandic Epilepsy syndrome and Landau-Kleffner syndrome. Many of these children do have seizures but 25-30% of them don't. In these cases the syndrome is very difficult to diagnose in children because there aren't any visual epileptic seizures. Parents often are desperate to find out what's wrong with their child and doctors often don't recognize epilepsy until an (24 hours) EEG shows the syndrome. Often they found our Dutch forum long before they get a diagnosis.

So they 'have' this epilepsy syndrome, which doesn't mean parents and doctors are giving up to find a source. On the contrary, 'having' the syndrome often starts them researching what causes it.

Malignant epilepsies with ESES
Two recognised syndromes (CSWS and Landau–Kleffner syndrome (LKS)) and another syndrome (MRE) have a common EEG feature (ESES), a poor cognitive outcome with permanent deficit, and only few, especially nocturnal, focal seizures in most cases, but no seizures in about 25–30% of patients. These three clinical syndromes (Table 2) start during childhood, around 6 years of age and they all are refractory to usual medical treatment.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1059131106000367
 
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I agree with Dutch mom. Saying you have epilepsy doesn't preclude one from trying to find the root cause of their ailment. Also, having epilepsy doesn't mean you've ever had a seizure. You can have abnormal EEGs and never actually have a seizure.

If this post is an attempt at saying that finding a diagnosis is some sort of cop out then you've spent a lot of breath on nothing. I've known I've had epilepsy for nearly 20 years and during that time have had multiple EEGs and medications to try and stop the seizures. Nobody ever said "Oh you have epilepsy" and blew me off. EVER.

Your own post about psychogenic, nonepileptic seizures should be a clue. Seizures =/= epilepsy, and epilepsy =/= seizures. One is a symptom of the other.
 
DutchMom, that is a very interesting point about some individuals having epileptic brain activity without actually having seizures. Those particular childhood disorders are something that you are much better versed about than I since you have said you are in groups for parents. Are these disorders ever seen in adults?

Perhaps then we are saying the same thing. Perhaps we could make the distinction between "having a seizure disorder" and "having an epilepsy syndrome".

But in the OP I was talking about adults who have one seizure and are told "You had a seizure" but then they have one more and are told, "You have epilepsy" and are wondering what changed.

I have never had anything but a normal EEG but I have been told for 30+ years that I have epilepsy.
 
Saying you have epilepsy doesn't preclude one from trying to find the root cause of their ailment.

If this post is an attempt at saying that finding a diagnosis is some sort of cop out then you've spent a lot of breath on nothing. I've known I've had epilepsy for nearly 20 years and during that time have had multiple EEGs and medications to try and stop the seizures. Nobody ever said "Oh you have epilepsy" and blew me off. EVER.

Your own post about psychogenic, nonepileptic seizures should be a clue. Seizures =/= epilepsy, and epilepsy =/= seizures. One is a symptom of the other.
This is the exact point I was trying to make yet they often get used interchangeably. And seizures can be a symptom of multiple things.

No, using the word epilepsy does not "preclude" you from continuing to search out the root cause, but, IMO, it does sound more *final* somehow. One could be a fluke, but two is a "disease". That just seems arbitrary to me.

I didn't say finding a diagnosis was a cop out, I'm saying that "idiopathic epilepsy" is not really a diagnosis. It is just a description of the symptoms.

Consider yourself lucky if you have had good neurological care along the way. Even the Stanford doc on the P.N.E.S. video referred to current medical practice as "diagnose and adios". It's great that you and your docs kept digging.

It's possible that neurological care is evolving and getting better as the years go by. My initial diagnosis was actually at Stanford, BTW (not by any of the guys in the video though). That was 1983 and I got zero information other than, "OK, you don't have a brain tumor. You have epilepsy. Take these pills. We don't care that they are making you sicker. If you don't take them we will have your driver's license yanked."
No mention of P.N.E.S., sleep apnea, getting enough sleep, nutrition being at all relevant.
So obviously Stanford's medical center has evolved a bit if it is doing the sort of interdepartmental coordination seen in that video.

(My new neurologist is wonderful so I know they are not all monsters and didn't mean to imply that they were.)
 
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Well Aloha, I have to agree with Dutchmom and resaebiunne. I have EPILEPSY. I WILL NEVER GIVE UP!! NEVER!! I've had seizures for 30+ years and had many abnormal EEG's.And my very first TC seizure nearly killed me, so I think it needs to be called a disease. I had been to my primary care dr. because I was experiencing CPs at the time and didn't know that is what was going on. He diagnosed me with hypoglycemia. The idiot! I wish that stupid dr. would have started me on some AED then, maybe I wouldn't have ended up with such a difficult case to handle. And I know a woman who lost her child to SUDEP. They're still gathering info on this subject, IMO, and will be for years.
 
Well Aloha, I have to agree with Dutchmom and resaebiunne. I have EPILEPSY. I WILL NEVER GIVE UP!! NEVER!! I've had seizures for 30+ years and had many abnormal EEG's.And my very first TC seizure nearly killed me, so I think it needs to be called a disease. I had been to my primary care dr. because I was experiencing CPs at the time and didn't know that is what was going on. He diagnosed me with hypoglycemia. The idiot! I wish that stupid dr. would have started me on some AED then, maybe I wouldn't have ended up with such a difficult case to handle. .
I don't think this makes us in disagreement about the heart of the matter, just about the terminology. I love the fact that you are resolved to fight! Resignation is for sissies! Onward to the Battlements! :)

I can see how in your case the severity would lend itself more to the term disease than disorder. That is matter of personal opinion. The International League Against Epilepsy agrees with you on that

Mis-diaagnosis is unfortunately not a rarity and can happen either direction. The nitwit you had thought it was hypoglycemia when you really needed some AEDs. But it could happen the other way too. Someone gets misdiagnosed as having epilepsy and put on AEDs when it was really a blood sugar issue or a B12 deficiency.

I wonder how often this happens. I doubt there ever could be firm stats on it because many cases would never be revealed. Especially if a person is told they must never stop taking these magic pills because they have "epilepsy" , how many people who never had epilepsy continue taking the pills indefinitely not knowing they were misdiagnosed?

My point is that the docs should be exploring ALL the possibilities when someone is experiencing seizures, not making snap judgements.
 
This is the exact point I was trying to make yet they often get used interchangeably. And seizures can be a symptom of multiple things.

No, using the word epilepsy does not "preclude" you from continuing to search out the root cause, but, IMO, it does sound more *final* somehow. One could be a fluke, but two is a "disease". That just seems arbitrary to me.

Sure, seizures can be symptoms of multiple things. I've had diabetic seizures, too, therefore, I prefer using "epilepsy" when referring to my different type of seizures. Once when I was rushed to the ER because of a seizure, they finally could get me to communicate that I also have diabetes and they checked my glucose. It was really, really low. So I had to stay in the hospital. Your reasoning seem arbitrary to me.


Aloha said:
I didn't say finding a diagnosis was a cop out, I'm saying that "idiopathic epilepsy" is not really a diagnosis. It is just a description of the symptoms.
I thought you said "idiopathic epilepsy"= "we don't know". My epilepsy is Idiopathic.


Aloha said:
It's possible that neurological care is evolving and getting better as the years go by.
(My new neurologist is wonderful so I know they are not all monsters and didn't mean to imply that they were.)

:ponder: you think so?
 
Sure, seizures can be symptoms of multiple things. I've had diabetic seizures, too, therefore, I prefer using "epilepsy" when referring to my different type of seizures. Once when I was rushed to the ER because of a seizure, they finally could get me to communicate that I also have diabetes and they checked my glucose. It was really, really low. So I had to stay in the hospital. Your reasoning seem arbitrary to me.
The ER docs want to know why you are having a seizure so they can help you. I would hope that they check blood glucose on anybody coming in with a seizure. That should be routine with diabetes as prevalent as it is today. <smh>

Trying to sort out one cause of a seizure from another is critical in an EMT situation. I wish that finding the root cause were as high a priority in most neurologists' offices when you are not in immediate danger of dying.


I thought you said "idiopathic epilepsy"= "we don't know". My epilepsy is Idiopathic.
That's what they told me too. I'm just saying that this doesn't help any. It doesn't tell me anything I didn't already know. It is the medical profession waving the white flag of surrender, IMO.


:ponder: you think so?
I hope so. I adore my new neurologist who is willing to run a whole bunch of new tests for me including a VEEG so there might be more info coming along.
 
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... what I wish would happen is that both patients and physicians would *try harder* to find out before just accepting the pronouncement of "I have epilepsy". ...

Some neurologists are one of the thousand points of light, and others are just very career oriented and busy. With many of the neuros we have seen, their first priority is to control the seizures (AED roulette). Diagnosing the root issue is a secondary concern.

I understand what you are saying in the OP with respect to the language used to describe things impacting how it's perceived and how people respond/react to it, but with respect to the bigger issue of the effort spent in diagnosing the root issue, I really think that is more a matter of economics and personality (of the doctor).

....
Then there's the whole discussion in the above article about if we should call epilepsy a "Disease" or not. They are arguing for calling it a disease because this impresses the seriousness of it on the world. What does everybody think about that?
...

http://www.coping-with-epilepsy.com/forums/f22/epilepsy-now-disease-you-can-outgrow-23761/
 
The ER docs want to know why you are having a seizure so they can help you.

Really? Why else would I go to the ER? Duh?!

Aloha said:
That's what they told me too. I'm just saying that this doesn't help any. It doesn't tell me anything I didn't already know. It is the medical profession waving the white flag of surrender, IMO.

Having someone admit they don't know is surrendering? Sorry, I don't agree.
That is why there is ongoing research about epilepsy/seizure disorders, whatever one wants to call it.

And in addition to your reply to Dutchmom, there are types of "epilepsy syndromes".
Look here: http://www.epilepsy.com/learn/types-epilepsy-syndromes

AND more:

http://www.epilepsy.com/learn/epilepsy-101/what-epilepsy
~Epilepsy is the fourth most common neurological disorder and affects people of all ages
~Epilepsy means the same thing as "seizure disorders"
~Epilepsy is characterized by unpredictable seizures and can cause other health problems
~Epilepsy is a spectrum condition with a wide range of seizure types and control varying from person-to-person
 
DutchMom, that is a very interesting point about some individuals having epileptic brain activity without actually having seizures. Those particular childhood disorders are something that you are much better versed about than I since you have said you are in groups for parents. Are these disorders ever seen in adults?

Perhaps then we are saying the same thing. Perhaps we could make the distinction between "having a seizure disorder" and "having an epilepsy syndrome".

But in the OP I was talking about adults who have one seizure and are told "You had a seizure" but then they have one more and are told, "You have epilepsy" and are wondering what changed.

I have never had anything but a normal EEG but I have been told for 30+ years that I have epilepsy.

AlohaBird, Landau Kleffner and ESES usually onset in childhood, age of onset influences the prognosis. These children grow up and being adults, lots of them still have the syndrome. I know several patients who are 18+ now. Most of them are boys (2:1 boy-girl)

I am one of the founders of a Dutch support group for parents with children with malignant epilepsy syndromes and difficult to control epilepsy. We have children of all ages, from baby's to adults. We do have many children with Glut1 deficiency, West syndrome, Lennox Gastaut syndrome, Dravet syndrome, several with ESES, Othahara syndrome and few with Landau Kleffner, Sturge Weber syndrome and Panayiotopoulos Syndrome. Many of our children with difficult to control seizures do not have a clear diagnose yet. Most of our children are mentally disabled or have multiple handicaps like my son has. Sometimes the handicaps are the source of the seizures, f.i. when a child has brain damage, brain abnormalities or genetic mutations, and in others the handicaps are a result of the epilepsy. We have an active forum and organize annual meeting days for our families. We started the group in 2002.

I joined CWE several years ago to read how adults with epilepsy experience seizures, medication etc. since our children can't tell how they feel.

As for the terminology: having an epilepsy syndrome is having a seizure disorder. The term syndrome just means there are several specific characteristics in common. There are many epilepsy syndromes, and more are still being identified. A syndrome is literally a set of related symptoms that occur together. Epilepsy syndromes are defined on the basis of seizure type, seizure location (for partial seizures), EEG features, age of onset, related symptoms, and sometimes cause. Epilepsy syndromes can be ideopatic, cryptogenic or symptomatic and they can be benign or malignant (usually we see the last type.)

Epileptic encephalopathies
Ohtahara and West syndromes
Lennox-Gastaut syndrome (LGS)
Dravet Syndrome Spectrum - WebMD (SMEI)
Malignant epilepsies with ESES
Continuous spike-waves during sleep syndrome (CSWS)
Malignant rolandic epilepsy (MRE)
Landau–Kleffner syndrome (LKS)
 
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I have never had anything but a normal EEG but I have been told for 30+ years that I have epilepsy.

We have seen this in our Dutch group with several children: they do have seizures but no epileptic activity on any of their EEG's. This makes parents as well as doctors puzzled and very insecure.

Off cause an EEG is a moment recording so that's why 24 hours or longer EEG monitoring is done, children usually are hospitalized or staying in a epilepsy clinic. Still there are children with perfectly normal EEG's while the doctors and nurses do witness seizures (live or video monitoring.)

We have three girls in our Dutch group, two were later on diagnosed with Rett syndrome and one without diagnosis, who had many clean long term EEG's while at home they did have severe seizures as well as mental retardation. One of these mom's even was accused of having Munchhausen by Proxy after she brought het daughter in for further examination while the neurologist was sure she didn't have epilepsy because of the clean EEG's.

A Dutch clinical neuro physicist called dr. Emde Boas examined this girls and said some types of epileptic activity in the deep brain don't show on standard EEG's. He performed a depth EEG (depth stereo electrography) which did show deep activity. He stated this was a dangerous type of epileptic activity because it could affect the breathing centre in the brain. Later on the girl was diagnosed with Rett syndrome (which usually comes with a milder type of epilepsy.) She tried the keto diet without success and now has a NVS.
 
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Some neurologists are one of the thousand points of light, and others are just very career oriented and busy. With many of the neuros we have seen, their first priority is to control the seizures (AED roulette). Diagnosing the root issue is a secondary concern.
I think I may have finally found one of the points of light.

I understand what you are saying in the OP with respect to the language used to describe things impacting how it's perceived and how people respond/react to it, but with respect to the bigger issue of the effort spent in diagnosing the root issue, I really think that is more a matter of economics and personality (of the doctor).
:agree:



Yes this traces back to the same original message I quoted in the OP from the International League Against Epilepsy.

I really like this part of their message. It shows epilepsy as something other than a life sentence. :)
 
Really? Why else would I go to the ER? Duh?!
I was just contrasting the fact that they search out things like the possibility of blood sugar issues in an ER situation but often ignore them in a regular neurologist's office.

Having someone admit they don't know is surrendering? Sorry, I don't agree.
That is why there is ongoing research about epilepsy/seizure disorders, whatever one wants to call it.
I think sometimes doctors don't want to admit "we are stumped" so they call it "idiopathic". This was my experience. They pronounced this as if it were the name of a disease and I didn't know what it meant until I went to the library and looked it up.

I think better informed patients and better informed doctors can be a self reinforcing cycle. If people walk into their appointments armed with good questions and the doctors see that they are well informed, the level of the whole conversation goes up.

Thanks for the links! :)
 
We have seen this in our Dutch group with several children: the do have seizures but no epileptic activity on any of their EEG's. This makes parents as well as doctors puzzled and very insecure.

Off cause an EEG is a moment recording so that's why 24 hours or longer EEG monitoring is done, children usually are hospitalized or staying in a epilepsy clinic. Still there are children with perfectly normal EEG's while the doctors and nurses do witness seizures (live or video monitoring.)

A Dutch clinical neuro physicist called dr. Emde Boas examined this girls and said some types of epileptic activity in the deep brain don't show on standard EEG's. He performed a depth EEG (depth stereo electrography) which did show deep activity. He stated this was a dangerous type of epileptic activity because it could affect the breathing centre in the brain.
Thank you, DutchMom, for all the references.

I am planning to have an inpatient 3-5 day VEEG done soon (scheduling in progress). Hopefully this will shed some light.

That is interesting about a deep brain disorder possibly affecting the breathing center in the brain. I wonder if this could tie into the research about central sleep apnea being a seizure trigger. Hmmmm.

This is why it's great to get these discussions going. So much good info comes out.
 
AlohaB, you might find this presentation on (the limitations of) EEG's by dr. Emde Boas interesting, especially from slide 20 and further on.
http://epilepsymontreal2013.org/_fileupload/Presentations/EEGepi%20%20Montreal%202013%20Virepa%20Walter%20van%20Emde%20Boas.pdf

He works in a Dutch epilepsy centre, he is an international authority on the subject of EEG. There is more in English by Emde Boas on the internet, just use Google.

Emde Boas is in the ILAE as a specialist on EEG's. I found this IAEL article on the terminology/definitions of 'epilepsy' and 'seizures'. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.0013-9580.2005.66104.x/full

Epilepsy is the name of a brain disorder characterized predominantly by recurrent and unpredictable interruptions of normal brain function, called epileptic seizures. Epilepsy is not a singular disease entity but a variety of disorders reflecting underlying brain dysfunction that may result from many different causes. Little common agreement exists on the definition of the terms seizure and epilepsy. Such definitions are important for communication among medical professionals and also for communication others involved in legislation, disability pensions, driving regulations, workplace safety, education, and for many other purposes. The definitions in this article are directed to a diverse group of physicians, educators, researchers, public officials, and people with epilepsy and their families.

The current proposal reflects consensus discussions held by representatives of the International League Against Epilepsy (ILAE) and the International Bureau for Epilepsy. It presents practical and operational definitions applicable both in medical and nonmedical settings.

Although the definitions have been formulated in English because of the prevalence of English in scientific communications, the intent is to express the essential features and meaning of these terms in a way applicable to translations into all languages. Preliminary definitions of epileptic seizure and epilepsy can be found in the ILAE 2001 Glossary of Descriptive Terminology for Ictal Semiology (1), and in a commonly cited epidemiologic review from 1991 (2). The current work is an expansion of the two central terms and should be considered to supersede the prior definitions.

[...]

ELEMENTS OF A DEFINITION OF SEIZURE

[...]

DEFINITION OF EPILEPSY

[...]


Find more content written by: [...] Walter van Emde Boas [...]
 
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I have found that both "epilepsy" and "seizure disorder" can be useful terms. I'll often use one or the other depending on the audience. No matter which term I deploy, I find I need to do a bit of educating a the same time, since the default image conjured up is almost always the superficial one of someone flopping on the floor.

I don't refer to epilepsy as a "disease" (though it can certainly be as devastating as any illness) since that can also summon up the wrong picture in people's minds. Sometimes it helps the listener if I make it somewhat analogous to asthma or diabetes: A chronic vulnerability that requires vigilance and care, and despite those may still be beyond control.
 
I like that "diagnose and adios" term. I think that is a very accurate description in many cases. I also agree that it depends on the doc as to how much digging and patient input is accepted as a part of the process.

In some cases, I think it is the doc learning to "trust" a patients judgment. I know my neuro and I disagreed for many years, and I would become frustrated with him and think of firing him and I'd get other opinions, but neither gave in and after 15 years we are at a point where we kick ideas around far more than we used to do. I think he now knows that I do some research, and that I expect real answers to my questions.

It must be that some docs see patients who have little interest in knowing more or bringing anything to the table, and may have to learn that you, as an individual patient, are more probing and thoughtful on the subject than others they may see everyday, who just want a pill to fix it and call it a day.

As for terminology, I also use both depending on the audience, and I always refer to it as a disorder, correcting those who say it is a disease.
 
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