Can antibiotics help reduce seizures?

[donnajane]

Something strange happened when our almost 20month old was put on antibiotics due to a high temp and ear infection. After 3 or 4 days he started to becomme the most like a normal toddler i have ever seen him. By the last day of the antibiotics, we had bascially no random events, only his staggering/unsteady walking when tired, his refulx cough when tired and a few smaller events when tired, he still did event's overnight but even they were a bit less. He remained in this "close to normal" toddler state for around 5 days after he finnished the course of antibiotics then he gradually went back to how he usually is. Then last week GP put him on more antibiotics due to tonsilitis and a high temp and the same thing happened. Nearly all of his large mood swings have even levelled out to what you would expect from a normal toddler. He ends this course of antibiotics on Tuesday and it will be now a wait and see if he follows the same course as last time and remains good for a few days then gradually goes back to his usual self.
He has had periods of being very good re seizures etc, still a few but mild, but this is usually accompanied by large mood swings.
The GP saw him to just check how he was going on Saturday and she could hardly believe it was the same child. She said to make sure we let his Nureologist know this has happened although she said it doesn't make sense other than they do not know what the lesion is in the middle of his brain so who know's the antibiotics may be doing something to it.
Has anyone heard of this happening before?
Thank you
Donna

 

[donnajane]

Had last 2 doses of antibiotics today so now the wait and see if he becomes more like we are use to. He did have a quite bad afternoon yesterday and was still on the antibiotics so this who knows maybe they are doing what we think and its just a "normal" cycle he is going through. Yesterday he slept for twice as long as usual in the afternoon, woke dripping in sweat so much so that his hold bed was wet through, he did not have a temperature. He was very NQR for at least 30min and just wanted to be held while he started to "come back on line" then when he did start to walk he was struggled and was staggering and falling down. An hour later he was able to walk a bit better but was having trouble with his right eye. His left was focuing while right was going in a different dirrection, he was poking it and rubbing it. This went on for around 10min. Today though he has been back to being really good.
Will be interesting to see what the next week holds.

 

[jyearta]

For me, each time I've had to take an antiob. I will feel better over all...then by day 4 or 5 I will have a seizure.
This is one of my triggers

 

[Nakamova]

Antibiotics can sometimes CAUSE seizures -- it depends on the variety, and on the individual too of course. But it's very interesting -- and hopeful -- that they seem to be helping your son. Which antibiotics was he taking? Do they interact with the anti-seizure med he's on? Definitely something to discuss with the doc.

BTW, saw this study, thought it might be of interest: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11074186

 

[KarenB]

This is an interesting thread, because many parents with kids on the Ketogenic diet will see improvement in their kids (seizure wise) when they're sick with a fever (lots of mention of this in the Charlie Foundation and Matthew's Friends forums).

It seems that fevers might sometimes cause seizures in normal kids, but in kids with seizure disorder, the fever sometimes helps -- don't know why.

I think it's probably the illness itself, rather than the antibiotic. We observed this several times with Jonathan when he was ill (prior to starting the diet), and sometimes is was a viral illness that was not treated with antibiotics.

Of course, some illnesses -- especially sinus infections and ear infections -- I suppose because they produce inflammation just next to the brain, can trigger really bad seizures -- this happened with us once -- ended up in ICU for 4 days.

 

[donnajane]

Thanks for th information.
Last time he was sick, around 3 weeks ago, he seemed to have his events multiply by at least 10 over the day until the antibiotics started working, I was so worried I emailed his Nureo, this time the Antiobiotics seemed to work quicker and within a day he was having periods of being almost like a normal toddler.
No Antibiotics since 11am yesterday and was already back to one of his more usual bad nights. Seemed to be crying/vacolising more and needing my husband and I to help him resettle. It may well be coincidental. We are waiting to email his Nureologist till this Friday night as he is having an ultrasound on a strange swollen gland in his neck that has been there for almost 8 months. His Dr's think its probably nothing but they said it's not your usual swollen gland and with the lesion in his brain they don't want to miss something so he is having it ultrasounded tomorrow.
He started doing this weird breathing tonight a couple of really short sucked in breaths then not breathing then again. It went on for around 15minutes. He didn't seem distressed and was normal colour but I will admit I am keeping a bit more of an eye on him as worried something more is "going on". Maybe its just "mummy instinct" but keep getting this feeling which I can't explain. I think his condition is really going to start to present itself more in the next few months. I might be totally wrong.

 

[KarenB]

Which antibiotics?

Swollen gland -- have they checked his thyroid levels?

Wierd breathing -- might want to have sleep EEG done if haven't already. If he were on the Ketogenic diet, or on Topamax or Zonegran, it could be a manisfestation of acidosis. Which, I suppose, could also happen if he were running a high fever and quite dehydrated.

That eye thing and staggering is worrisome. Jon sometimes loses control of one leg after having a bad tonic clonic seizure (he has temporal lobe epilepsy), and I know that vision issues can also occur with temporal lobe epilepsy.

 

[KarenB]

There's all different sorts of brain lesions. One type is the kind associated with MS (which is not the same type associated with seizures), and one study in Ireland found that treatment with antibiotics plus Inteferon reduced the number of lesions, and also the disability.
http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=12735

Brain lesions can also be caused by Lyme disease, and antibiotics can reduce these lesions as well.
http://www.naturalchoice.net/articles/commonmisdiagnosis.htm
*******

As far as seizures and antibiotics, as Nakamova said, many antibiotics can CAUSE seizures, but there is some studies that certain ones have anti-seizure effects (perhaps because they're also anti-inflammatory)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22579030

Inflammation can also enhance neuron excitability, which can not only cause seizures, but also autistic like symptoms and hyperactivity in children.

I am personally quite intrigued with the association of inflammation and seizures, and wonder if an anti-inflammatory diet (sometimes used to treat diseases like arthritis) could be helpful with seizures. That sort of diet would feature lots of canola and olive oil, nuts, flaxseed, fish, all of the leafy green veggies, and would be lower in things like all the starches (especially wheat based) and most dairy products except for plain low-fat yogurt. At least that's my understanding -- still doing some research on this.

 

[donnajane]

Karen, I also wonder re inflamation and siezures. I have osteo and rhumatiod arthritis so have issues with inflamtion myself so do wonder if this is also affecting my little man.
His antiobtics, one lot was amoxcilon and the other started with c, I would have to dig out the notes from his appointment.
He is not on any diet to help with his events as we are having issues getting him to eat without altering it and making it harder. He also has been having issues/intolerance to some foods so far namely pineapple, watermelon and sometimes strawberries. Peanuts react when put on his skin sometimes but he seems OK with them at other times.
He has an issue with cows milk protien when younger but seems to have outgrown it.
His ultrasound went well. They called in the Dr who reports on the ultrasound to have a look as the radilogist said it could be either of two things but didn't really totally fit either. They checked for a blood supply to the lump and there wasn't any so Dr said not to worry it isn't anything to be concerned with. She said she would have another look at the pictures and send a report to our GP with her thoughts. He is seeing GP tomorrow for "results". He was quite good at the start but when the Dr came in we had to hold him down a little so they were able to get a better picture.
Today he had a pretty good day, tonight was not as good but more agitated and irritable than seizures.
This forum is so great. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with me.

 

[Nakamova]

That's interesting about his pineapple sensitivity -- pineapple actually has a compound in it (bromelain) that is known to fight inflammation (see links below). It can reduce swelling, help against sore throats, relax spasming muscles, and treat arthritis and gout, and help with digestion of proteins. If he can't process pineapple, maybe other food-based anti-inflammatories aren't helping him either, and he's suffering from sytemic inflammation as a result.

Oddly enough, amoxicillin and bromelain can interact -- bromelain can increase levels of amoxicillin in the body. The other antibiotic he received might have been something in the cephalosporin family of antibiotics -- they all start with c, and are prescribed for things like ear infections.

Amoxicillin definitely has anti-inflammatory effects, so you may be on to something -- I hope his docs take note.



http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/895.html
http://nccam.nih.gov/research/results/spotlight/080309.htm

 

[donnajane]

You all never cease to amaze me with the information you share.
I feel we are gradually putting the peices of my sons condition together and will hopefully get an answer eventually.
Inflammation makes sense to me with his condition as he has periods where he can barely walk for over an hour or more, just stumbles around and falls then other times he is walking around normally. I am assuming inflamtion in his brain could cause this and they are still looking into what the lesion on his putamen actually is if it's a glioma, odeam or something to do with the lining of his brain in that area.
Nothing seems to make sense with his condition. His nureologist says he does have epileptic events but is not sure if he had epilepsy.
Will email his nureo and paed tonight and see what they say. Will get the exact info re what the antiobotics where strength, dose etc when we see GP tonight and email this as well.
Thanks again.
Donna

 

[KarenB]

I really think research into inflammation and epilepsy have great promise.

Here's an article you might find interesting:
http://gordyslack.blogspot.com/2012/06/inflammation-and-epilepsy.html

Working from another angle...especially since your baby has been ill recently...rememered I was reading an account on Matthew's Friends (forum for parents with kids on Ketogenic diet) about this Mom that was having an awful time with her little one -- he was hospitalized with awful seizures, and had stopped walking and talking, and they had him on all kinds of meds, and nothing was helping. This was pretty going on throughout the summer.

At any rate, for some reason, the idea of a virus came to her, and she insisted they test for viruses. At first everyone poo pooed her idea, but she kept insisting, and sure enough, he tested positive for Epstein Barr, which, in some children can cause meningitus or encephalitis type symptoms. Last I heard, the virus spontaneously resolved itself, and they had the little guy out of the hospital seizure free.

 

[donnajane]

Karen you are so full of idea's. Do you know how long that child was ill for before they found out what was happening? My little man has been like this for around 13months now and his nureo actually wonders if it started a lot earlier but was just passed off as really bad episodes of reflux. He has been tested for so many things viruses, thryoid issues etc the only things which have come up are his iron was slightly down, he now has a multivitamin sup with iron and his zinc result was really strange. He had Zinc in his blood but almost nonw in his red blood cells. Even his Nureologist asked around the hospital lab re this and he was told although it was very unusual it was of no clinical significance. I have feeling they will find it will tie in once they eventually work out what is going on. The results from his ultrasound were another typical result ie it wasn't conclusive. As the lump is hard it added an unkown factor but the report came back that they think it could still be a small mobile lymph node rather than a small demroid cyst. GP said we should keep an eye on it and it needs to have another ultrasound next feb. He siad he didn't feel it was linked to his other issues but nothing is adding up with our little man so it won't suprise me if things they don't think are realted are actually related.
The GP watched his walking and said it was quite stiff for how long he had been walking and he also asked if he only babbled and not talked as that was all he was doing. I said had to explain how only 4 weeks ago his paed had commented on how he had put a 5 word sentence together but we haven't heard it since and although he can talk babbles more and more lately. He read what the GP who saw him last Saturday wrote as he was so much more like a normal toddler and then looked at him now and said that it will be interesting when/if they can work out what is happening or if he will grow out of it.
I now have 3 weeks off with my kids and I plan on spending as much time with them all as possible as often when I am working I don't get the full picture of what is happening with our youngest and being with him 24/7 for 3 weeks will be great for me to see how he is at different times throughout the day and not just having to go on the opinions of the child care workers at my work, they are amazing but I like seeing things myself.
Thanks again.
Donna

 

[KarenB]

OK, I went back and found her thread. Her little guy starting getting sick in May. Lot's of seizures (after great success on Ketogenic Diet), and a "drooling zombie" and could barely speak.

At first she thought it was because his Valproic Acid (Depakote) levels were too high, (went up to 116). They began a wean of that, but he got to the point where he couldn't swallow and wasn't reacting, and was put in the hospital. He was having tonic clonic seizures and not coming back to "baseline" in between.

At the hospital they weaned him completely off Valproic Acid and put him on Clobazam and Etho, and within 24 hours, he'd had a turnaround -- was talking, laughing and running around (although like he was drunk). Still having myoclonic and absence seizures, but tonic clonics stopped.

Went home at end of June -- was riding his bike, singing away, but by end of July began having tonic clonics again. She suspected it was "withdrawal" from the Clobazam (the drugs in the benzo group work great for several weeks, and then stop working unless you increase the dose). He stopped talking, was just drooling. About 10 tonic clonics a day, and countless myoclonics. Back in hospital. They began reducing the Clobazam and the Etho and put him back on Valproic Acid.

It was at this point that something prompted the mother to ask for virus testing. That's when they discovered the Epstein Barr. Within a few days, the little boy was beginning to speak again, but with great effort. A lot of crying and frustration. The hospital was wanting to add in more meds, and they said no, and finally just took him out of the hospital, as he was improving.

The last time she posted was in late August, and her little boy was back to normal with just a myoclonic on occasion, but no more tonic clonics, and he's able to walk and talk again.

 

[donnajane]

You are amazing Karen. I am going to mention Epstein Barr to his Paed and Nureo as all my sons Dr's are looking for an answer to what is going on with him and it is obviously something they haven't or rarely come across.
Thanks again.
Donna

 

[MamaC]

We are new to seizures. My 7 month old daughter had her first seizure early July. After the full differential at the hospital, she came back all normal, except EEG showed some irregular waves. So she has been on anti-seizure meds since. We went 6 weeks without another episode. Then just one. Then in the past two weeks they have been growing steadily.

She had her 6 month vaccines almost 3 weeks ago and that seemed to trigger a spell. And then a week later she started having one twice a day. My gut was something else was wrong because we have all had allergies and snotty noses.

Sure enough, her Ped found an ear infection. We are on day 3 of the antiobiotics but she has gotten worse, not better. She has had 6 today - all tonic-clonics. All looks the same, some times 1 minute sometimes closer to 3.

We are trying to figure out what else we can request or insist the neuro do.

Thank you for sharing all this information and the link to the inflammation and seizures link.

 

[KarenB]

What antibiotic is she getting for the ear infection? Doctors commonly give amoxicillen for this, and although our son has only had 2 or 3 ear infections in his 8 years of life, the amoxicillen wasn't potent enough to knock out the ear infection.

We have also discovered that ear infections and sinus infections can wreak havoc with seizures -- I guess because there's all that inflammation just next to the brain.

If it were me, I would take your baby back down to the pediatrician today and have them look to see if the ear infection is clearing up. If not, then a different med is probably required. (Let them know about the big increase in tonic clonics).

As far as what the neurologist -- I would discuss with him/her the Ketogenic diet. In the past, doctors waited until a child had failed about 5 meds and was considered hopeless before initiating the diet, but Johns Hopkins hospital is now using it as a first line of treatment for infantile spasms. The Ketogenic diet is also one of the best treatments for some of the syndromes (causing seizures) that manifest in the first year of life, like Dravet Syndrome.

http://www.hopkinschildrens.org/high-fat-diet-can-reduce-of-end-debilitating-seizures.aspx

http://professionals.epilepsy.com/page/ketogenic.html

Also, you should educate yourself about the diet. You can go to the Charlie Foundation website and the Matthew's Friends websites to get lots of useful information, studies, etc., and there's also helpful forums. (There is a link to their websites in the article in the 2nd link above)

 

[MamaC]

We are better for

Thank you so much, I did go in and ears cleared but she had 6 seizures on Thur so now dr wants to change meds. we are worried becAuse since they added Clinazepam it seems to be more under control, so do we really want to switch from Trileptal to Onfi. Anybody have experience with this?

Thank you again. I am so glad I found this group!

 

[KarenB]

We haven't used Onfi. We did have Jon on Trileptal, which didn't work -- made his seizures worse, and made him psychotic to boot.

He was on Clonazepam very briefly a little over a month ago. Can't stay on this drug long, because it begins to lose it's effect after 2 to 4 weeks -- it's usually used as a rescue drug. Also, body gets quite addicted to it, and then hard to get off.

May want to discuss Dravet Syndrome with her doc -- this is a type of epilepsy that starts in infancy, and certain drugs work well, but others make the condition worse. Babies with this type of epilepsy often are very sensitive to changes in temperature -- they often will have seizures if they have a fever, but cold can also be a trigger -- things like swimming or taking a bath or even drinking something really cold or being in a cold wind can trigger seizures.

There's genetic testing that can be done for Dravet Syndrome.

 

[cazzy]

is it possible there underlying infection somewhere and question of finding out where,the hospital do white blood count and red blood count...i got similar thing with my daughter she got bacterial infection last year or so and she on anti biotics once twice a month...anti biotics seem do trick but few bacteria cells remain and whole thing starts again