This Cannot Be Good (Tasering non-responsive peeps)

[Rae1889]

Nova Scotia Allows Taser Use on Mentally Ill

The report does not say what is considered a mentally ill episode or person. It says that it will only allow tasering after de-escalation and other tactics do not work.

If someone is in the middle of a seizure, there is usually no compliance when someone asks you to do something. Because you cant. Also, pre-ictal and post-ictal states cause a problem because during those times, a person with epilepsy may not be able to control themselves.

Personally, I think tasers are barbaric for anyone unless they are holding a weapon.

 

[Nakamova]

I agree, this is terrible. The police would need to have extensive training AND real experience -- and that just doesn't happen. Plus, as you say, tasers are pretty horrible.

 

[davidmc]

What if someone's seizure is cardiology related?
Police taser them = they have a death on their hands.

I remember once reading that tasers are non-lethal weapons. I didn't believe that then, and since then I have read of at least 6 people that have died from being tasered.

 

[BigWill]

Tasers are lethal for sure. I have also read a few stories where people died from being tased.

 

[Ruth]

I read the article and it is horrendous. In CA, the police shoot first and ask questions later. Now, that they are going to use lasers on the mentally ill, they will also use them on the devolpmentally disabled and all health problems.

The police do not care, or take the time, to tell the difference between a person's different problems. At least, not in CA. Like I said, they shoot first and ask questions later. When they use a laser here, they always give multiple lasers.

 

[Endless]

I agree. Tasering is horrible. And to use it on the disabled, who may have no control, is even worse. The police need a better way to subdue someone.

Spiderman had a net that shot out and entangled people without hurting them. So did batman. I expect our police to be our super heros - here to save us, not to tase us.

 

[ericksonmj]

I read the article and it is horrendous. In CA, the police shoot first and ask questions later. Now, that they are going to use lasers on the mentally ill, they will also use them on the devolpmentally disabled and all health problems.

The police do not care, or take the time, to tell the difference between a person's different problems. At least, not in CA. Like I said, they shoot first and ask questions later. When they use a laser here, they always give multiple lasers.

You know having been military and LE thats a pretty bold statement. I have been tased and used a taser on others, and all I can say is that those that I used a taser on would have been shot if I didnt have the choice of less lethal force. Just my two cents worth.

 

[Ruth]

I made a bold statement about CA police. Not ones who use guns and tasters properly in CA or other states.. I have 2 sons who are mentally ill.

An adult, who was mentally ill was playing with a toy gun. A policeman stopped and killed him. We hear horror stories like this all of the time on the CA news.

I stand by my statement.

 

[Bernard]

Some LEOs abuse their authority. Some make really poor decisions. Some are very conscientious. You shouldn't use the bad examples to paint all LEOs with the same brush.

That said, LEOs generally are not trained well enough to recognize (complex partial) seizures and post-ictal states and differentiate them from what they call "excited delirium". Basically, if they have any reasonable doubt, they are going to shoot (the taser) first because their safety is their primary concern.

Previous threads about tasers:

http://www.coping-with-epilepsy.com/forums/tags/taser.html

 

[Jfpinell]

I read the article and it is horrendous. In CA, the police shoot first and ask questions later. Now, that they are going to use lasers on the mentally ill, they will also use them on the devolpmentally disabled and all health problems.

The police do not care, or take the time, to tell the difference between a person's different problems. At least, not in CA. Like I said, they shoot first and ask questions later. When they use a laser here, they always give multiple lasers.

I have to totally disagree with this. Police training isn't the same as it was 50 or even 20 years ago. (I was in law enforcement training in college) Today there are so many different steps that have to be taken along the way before they can even touch their pepper or tazer -let alone their gun. It's called the "disturbance resolution". It goes all the way from simple presence to deadly force. Along the way there are about 10 or 12 steps in between to make certain that one's 5th and 6th Amendment rights are not being violated. If your State is practicing the way you say, I urge you to get in touch with your Legislature AND you State Department Of Justice about this behavior!! Different States have slightly different policies and laws, but there still are Constitutional laws that every State must go by. We had 1 student about 2 years ago in Defense and Arrest Tactics scenario testing for D.O.J. certification that to make it short, fired her weapon (they of course use blanks in class) only after about 20 seconds of talking with NO indication of physical "threat" to her by the "criminal". Needless to say, she failed on the spot! (By the way, I was the one she was practicing on!)

 

[Endless]

That's the way it's supposed to be. The reality is that in our city, two mentally ill people who weren't carrying guns and weren't moving towards or threatening anyone were shot and killed last year. Their behavior was abberant and downright strange, but they didn't deserve death. Police just interpreted the strange behavior as threatening because they didn't understand it. Life doesn't always follow procedure, and police officers are human and sometimes make mistakes, sometimes based on their own misperceptions.

I just hope that if I'm having a complex partial, doing something nutty (and possibly illegal) and don't respond to police or stop, they don't tase me. Probably wouldn't happen, but you never know.

 

[ericksonmj]

Okay, abuse of athority can happen everywhere, the banker, the teacher the police, the Dr's, its almost become a way of life.

For police escalation of force is part of the equation, 99.9% of the time just staying the calm one and not trying to argue with people and listening to them deescalates most situations, a lot of the time just LEO presence will end any problems. But the public seems to think that Tasers, Pepper Spray, and or batons are not meant to hurt or kill people. They are just a few of the tools that are used by LEO's to do their job, just like radar guns, patrol vehicles and breathalyzers, a job that probably 99% or people dont understand, and to be truthful just cant unless you have put on a badge and sidearm and taken that oath to put the public's safety and well being above yours. Their is no such thing as "Non-Lethal Force", if you are going to use force some one is going to stand a chance of getting hurt, even that act of putting handcuffs on a subject could injure them. The department I was with had clear cut policies on the use of sidearms, tasers, batons, and or pepper spray, and a policy for investigating after any of them were used none of which were ever used lightly by my department. I cant speak personally about the cases that are mentioned above, but first and foremost that officer is looking out for innocent lives and their own. And let me tell you, their are people out their that would kill you for no other reason than you wear that badge. Before I happened to "end" up with the hell that is Epilepsy, and for safety reasons turned in my badge and gun, to tell you the truth I wouldn't have been able to tell you if some one was having a episode or was tripping on something or just drunk, I would have tased them, and if it happens to me, would rather be tased than shot, have had both happen to me in the past (you get to be tased when your certified with it so you know what your subjects are experiencing) and let me tell you, you recover a lot faster from 2 small barbs than a bullet, as in minutes vice days, weeks, months, years or never.

So is a Taser safe? Not always, but its always got better odds than a bullet or bullets since LEO's are taught to shot till the threat is down or gone.

 

[Jfpinell]

Were you 1 of the students beating on me in scenarios?
Well said. but I still would encourage him to contact the proper State authorities if there is any concern of abuse of power, or just ignorance that needs to be cleared up and better training standards put in place before an accident like that happens. I've talked to several of my instructors about these kinds of things. The Dept. Of Justice needs to wake up a bit and get more educated
.....Now, out to get my doughnut. (police joke) *giggle*

 

[Bernard]

jfpinell - there are at least 2 cases mentioned in the threads in the tag list I linked in my last post where tasers were used on someone who was post-ictal:

http://www.coping-with-epilepsy.com/forums/f37/family-suing-police-causing-death-4035/ - California case highlighted by the EFA where tasing actually caused the death in a post-ictal man following a tonic clonic seizure.

http://www.coping-with-epilepsy.com/forums/f22/post-ictal-tasered-3269/ - Teenager was tased at least 12 times because he was post-ictal and fighting paramedics who were trying to restrain him.

I am also aware of many cases where LEOs abused the use of tasers (in cases that have nothing to do with epilepsy and seizures), but I don't see the need to mention them here. Suffice it to say that abuse happens, and it's sad when it does.