BuckeyeFan
Grandpa
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Good point ChatterBox. That is the situation indicated by the story, but it is never actually stated that he had a seizure.
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Good point ChatterBox. That is the situation indicated by the story, but it is never actually stated that he had a seizure.
TexasTravel
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Ooooooooh, this gets on my nerves!
I get tired of the public using seizures as an excuse to "hang" someone. There are sooooooooooooooo many other situations that should be held to the same criminal standards.
For example, I was a chemical plant operator for 14 years. I have seen, so many times, people walking off of 16 hour shift, after working tremendously hard and having just taken a shower.......all of which start shutting your body down dramatically. Once a person slows down from tiring tasks, your body starts shutting down. I have seen many people walking out of the shower room tripping on tiles on the floor because their feet were dragging so much. They should be judged the same critical way. There are so many similar circumstances. Ladies that have been up all night taking care of their babies and being tired, just like the operators.
Their are many, many circumstances that should be judged just as critically.
I get tired of the public using seizures as an excuse to "hang" someone. There are sooooooooooooooo many other situations that should be held to the same criminal standards.
For example, I was a chemical plant operator for 14 years. I have seen, so many times, people walking off of 16 hour shift, after working tremendously hard and having just taken a shower.......all of which start shutting your body down dramatically. Once a person slows down from tiring tasks, your body starts shutting down. I have seen many people walking out of the shower room tripping on tiles on the floor because their feet were dragging so much. They should be judged the same critical way. There are so many similar circumstances. Ladies that have been up all night taking care of their babies and being tired, just like the operators.
Their are many, many circumstances that should be judged just as critically.
TexasTravel
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One question that I would ask is "How long between seizures is to be between seizures that one would have to be to be deemed responsible?".
If one goes 10 years between seizures and feels that he is "cured", should he still be judged as "Having known better" and be judged the same as someone that had a seizure the previous day or should there be a "time" guage that decides if a time between seizures makes one responsible?
What if the doctor told someone that he is "cured" and has a seizure some time later? Is he still responsible, or the doctor?
This is a very tricky topic.
I will give another, personal, key example. The vaaaaaaaaaaaast majority of my seizures are in my sleep, or on the way to do so. I have had 2 seizures, though, while driving. The 2 that I had were about 10 years apart but had seizures complications. One was driving down a neighborhood dirt road in which I had an extremely rare tonic clonic when I was totally awake and aware. Obviously, when I went into the seizure, I went stiff, pushed on the gas extremely hard and plowed down a huge pecan tree. If I had hit someone, whether in an auto or not, there would have been a death.... I am sure.
The next one happened over 10 years later while driving a city street in the middle of town. My wife was the passenger, saw it happen and grabbed the steering wheel in time to put us into a big stop light, not any cars or people........thank God.
So, would/should I have been responsible if something serious had happened? 10 years apart is a serious amount of time and I do not have serious on a regular basis and 99% percent of them are when I am extremely tired and when I am asleep or about to fall asleep........which I was not either time.
If one goes 10 years between seizures and feels that he is "cured", should he still be judged as "Having known better" and be judged the same as someone that had a seizure the previous day or should there be a "time" guage that decides if a time between seizures makes one responsible?
What if the doctor told someone that he is "cured" and has a seizure some time later? Is he still responsible, or the doctor?
This is a very tricky topic.
I will give another, personal, key example. The vaaaaaaaaaaaast majority of my seizures are in my sleep, or on the way to do so. I have had 2 seizures, though, while driving. The 2 that I had were about 10 years apart but had seizures complications. One was driving down a neighborhood dirt road in which I had an extremely rare tonic clonic when I was totally awake and aware. Obviously, when I went into the seizure, I went stiff, pushed on the gas extremely hard and plowed down a huge pecan tree. If I had hit someone, whether in an auto or not, there would have been a death.... I am sure.
The next one happened over 10 years later while driving a city street in the middle of town. My wife was the passenger, saw it happen and grabbed the steering wheel in time to put us into a big stop light, not any cars or people........thank God.
So, would/should I have been responsible if something serious had happened? 10 years apart is a serious amount of time and I do not have serious on a regular basis and 99% percent of them are when I am extremely tired and when I am asleep or about to fall asleep........which I was not either time.
You are
right, Texas. I do not know what the time requirements for seizure control are in Australia--although (CQ and KellyD, help me here) if memory serves me, it is three years.
Even if his seizures DIDN'T cause the wreck, he should not have been behind the wheel if he was still within that time frame. Actually they did, if you read farther down into the article. Here is a quote:
And, the first sentence of the article does say:
And I DO understand what you're saying about the seizure occurrence....even though my t/c's, which are ENTIRELY nocturnal, AND now rare, (the last was 6 years ago) I take myself off the road. No discussion. I just do it, for a year. Even if I know it was because I'd missed my meds, I still take myself off the road for a year. THEN I reintroduce myself to driving with another licensed driver in the car.........just to make sure I haven't forgotten anything.
Maybe I'm paranoid.........overly cautious, I don't know. But I do believe in the rights of other people to live.
There ARE many other reasons that a wreck could have been caused: drunkenness, tiredness, being high, not paying attention, talking on a cell phone are all good examples. There is plenty of truth in that.
And I still hold that he was selfish because he turned around and got a new license in a different name.
As for the timeline that you wonder about.......I honestly cannot answer that. I think a lot of that depends on the area in which you live, you and your doctor, and your personal experiences. But in terms of 10 years.....I would say that some one would expect you to be having one again as a remote possibility, even if your doc had given you a clean bill of health, EEGs had come out clean, and you were off meds. Just because of the prejudice that occurs against us E patients, and nothing more.
OK, I'm sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now......:soap::soap::bigsmile:
right, Texas. I do not know what the time requirements for seizure control are in Australia--although (CQ and KellyD, help me here) if memory serves me, it is three years.
Even if his seizures DIDN'T cause the wreck, he should not have been behind the wheel if he was still within that time frame. Actually they did, if you read farther down into the article. Here is a quote:
And, the first sentence of the article does say:
And I DO understand what you're saying about the seizure occurrence....even though my t/c's, which are ENTIRELY nocturnal, AND now rare, (the last was 6 years ago) I take myself off the road. No discussion. I just do it, for a year. Even if I know it was because I'd missed my meds, I still take myself off the road for a year. THEN I reintroduce myself to driving with another licensed driver in the car.........just to make sure I haven't forgotten anything.
Maybe I'm paranoid.........overly cautious, I don't know. But I do believe in the rights of other people to live.
There ARE many other reasons that a wreck could have been caused: drunkenness, tiredness, being high, not paying attention, talking on a cell phone are all good examples. There is plenty of truth in that.
And I still hold that he was selfish because he turned around and got a new license in a different name.
As for the timeline that you wonder about.......I honestly cannot answer that. I think a lot of that depends on the area in which you live, you and your doctor, and your personal experiences. But in terms of 10 years.....I would say that some one would expect you to be having one again as a remote possibility, even if your doc had given you a clean bill of health, EEGs had come out clean, and you were off meds. Just because of the prejudice that occurs against us E patients, and nothing more.
OK, I'm sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now......:soap::soap::bigsmile:
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My take on this tragedy ( for it is nothing short of that ) is that we have been pushed into corners where we hide our condition. Let's say this guy depended on his driving for a living (eg., truck driver) - he declares his epilepsy and bye bye license . I don't seek to justify this idiocy but am looking for a disease behind the symptom. People don't declare their epilepsy for a vast multitude of reasons , one of the primary ones being the loss of a driving license and independence. My hospital is in one of a few places in mumbai that's not well connected by public transport so i'm toying with the idea of getting a motorbike , but even though i'm seizure free (and have a valid license) i have to think ten times before i drive , partly because of the fear of doing exactly what this guy did , and partly because i think waaaaayy too much for my own good , the thought process being - "work starts at eight so i have to get up at 6 . will i be well rested enough that my sleep deprivation will not trigger a seizure ????....."
The points those of you have made about people with pacemakers and other impediments being allowed to drive is valid. For that matter , what about pilots who fly for 16-20 hours and then have to fly the next day again ?
People are no closer to understanding epilepsy and moronic behaviour of this sort is unlikely to propel them towards enlightenment. Even at a recent job interview , where i was interviewed by DOCTORS , they said "do you have any medical condition we should know about?" and i said" yeah i have JME". Pregnant pause......"have you been seen by a neurologist?" i wanted to yell "DUH!" but shut up( who the ^%$ wouldn't see a neuro after 13 years of epilepsy?). "well , we'll guve you the job but we want you to get reviewed by our neurologist before you start ". If i had said " i'm diabetic " or " i have a family history of heart disease" they wouldn't have "cared" as much.
The points those of you have made about people with pacemakers and other impediments being allowed to drive is valid. For that matter , what about pilots who fly for 16-20 hours and then have to fly the next day again ?
People are no closer to understanding epilepsy and moronic behaviour of this sort is unlikely to propel them towards enlightenment. Even at a recent job interview , where i was interviewed by DOCTORS , they said "do you have any medical condition we should know about?" and i said" yeah i have JME". Pregnant pause......"have you been seen by a neurologist?" i wanted to yell "DUH!" but shut up( who the ^%$ wouldn't see a neuro after 13 years of epilepsy?). "well , we'll guve you the job but we want you to get reviewed by our neurologist before you start ". If i had said " i'm diabetic " or " i have a family history of heart disease" they wouldn't have "cared" as much.
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An Editoral from Old Brainy on Doc A's comment ...
And as it almost goes along with my post
below ---
THE STIGMA STILL REIGNS!
Get this: It is a fact that it is possible for a
person to have 1 or 2 seizure(s) in their entire
lifetime and NOT have Epilepsy or be a person
who has Epilepsy either. It could stem from
being a baby, child, head trauma, or even an
illness or something unknown that just "happened"
for just one-time moment only that the person
just never knew it. Many times such never gets
(if ever) reported! And if they do end up in the
ER --> usually follow ups turns drums up to
nothingness but just a "brief moment of a
seizure" and without any much ado about it.
ON THE OTHER HAND ....
If anything; if ever - revolves around the brain,
neurologically speaking - even if it is Epilepsy;
simply bluntly speaking - you are marked for
life. It is <quote and unquote> "impossible" to
even remove that "black mark" off of you as
invisible as it is. Being it like an 'invisible tattoo'
or 'invisible birthmark', forever to abide with you
until the day of your final breath.
Discrimination, Rejection, Isolation, Battles, Stigma,
Conflicts, Confrontations, Peer Reviews, Criticism,
Judgment with or without further criteria of full
evaluation (in other words - to quote an old adage;
"Making mountains out of molehills"), and so forth;
one surely must endure and press forth constantly.
A pie in one's face is insinuating enough. Having
been "Epilepsy free" because of a benign childhood
Epilepsy - such as "Rolandic" for example; which
one had outgrown, is an insult to a 25, 30, 50+
year old person. That which was of only temporary
is "stuck with them" and just as one who has Epilepsy,
they too, must endure frequently the same measures
beyond disbelief.
To make it worse, to hide such, would be costly to
them and yet on the flip-side of the coin to expose
such is the same as well. The U.S. Military has a
policy of "Don't ask, don't tell", sadly, that cannot
be applied towards those with Epilepsy.
Answer me now? Why is it perfectly permissionable
for someone who wears glasses - regardless of their
visual status and condition - to be hired without a
second thought? Or one who is Diabetic, can be
shrugged off and be eligible without loosing a train
of thought? Nary would a person with High BP (Blood
Pressure) and has a bad history of cardiac problems
can be whisked aboard to the orientation immediately
at once? Or how about a person with multiple chronic
health problems (anything but neurological) and even
in a wheelchair, can be hired right on the spot?
Indeed, stigma prevails much; Epilepsy needs to be
bought forth OUT OF THE SHADOWS - and in spite of
all the dire media attention manifested forth; but
ask yourself this question:
"Is anyone truly listening?"
onder:
Moreover, it is true people "hear", but do they "listen"?
People "read" but do they comprehend and grasp the
reality of everything? Apparently it is not the case,
for it still is reflecting broadly all around - left and
right; just open your eyes and peer about - it is
still alive and well. Is everything that everyone is
doing in vain? The "Old Brainy" perceives not, but
rather that the general public as a whole, world-wide
is just very slow to compensate everything for mainly
for this purpose; it is beyond their realm of under-
standing. It is the lack of total understanding is
what keeps people from total acceptance - therein,
the "Stigma still lies within"...
All in all, it takes time; in addition, with much
perseverance and persuasion - if people would
all come together and push with such a mighty
force in unison ~ one body, as a whole, can shaken
the entire world to the realm of reality. One person
cannot do this nor can sporadic people scattered
abroad here and there. One must not have the
attitude of "I'm going to let the others handle it",
for we all must become involved - for "We, the
people of Epilepsy, have a voice. We can speak
and break down all the walls that holds us at
bay. We must stand up and fight, and let the
world know - We are living breathing human beings!
We can do many things that everyone else can
pretty much so, if not, even better or beyond!"
The world has the concept that "Epilepsy" is
"Mental Retardation" (yes, they still fall under that
old politically incorrect terminology) which brings
forth another stigma therein. Epilepsy has nothing
to do with one's intelligence, for there are brilliant
people that supersedes of those who are of normalcy,
just as there are people who super multi-talented.
Epilepsy is unique in many ways; in one unusual
way - to the fact that people with Epilepsy are higher
and more prone to be multi-talented more so beyond
those who are normal human beings. Such finding is
rather uncanny, but is that good or bad? For one to
have Epilepsy with such feat extraordinaire is
truly beyond human comprehension, if one dares to
trod venture into the soils of famous and nearly famous
people with Epilepsy or Epilepsies - and what they had
or have (living or deceased) done / doing. That itself
would truly, pardon the pun; blow one's mind!
And as it almost goes along with my post
below ---
THE STIGMA STILL REIGNS!
Get this: It is a fact that it is possible for a
person to have 1 or 2 seizure(s) in their entire
lifetime and NOT have Epilepsy or be a person
who has Epilepsy either. It could stem from
being a baby, child, head trauma, or even an
illness or something unknown that just "happened"
for just one-time moment only that the person
just never knew it. Many times such never gets
(if ever) reported! And if they do end up in the
ER --> usually follow ups turns drums up to
nothingness but just a "brief moment of a
seizure" and without any much ado about it.
ON THE OTHER HAND ....
If anything; if ever - revolves around the brain,
neurologically speaking - even if it is Epilepsy;
simply bluntly speaking - you are marked for
life. It is <quote and unquote> "impossible" to
even remove that "black mark" off of you as
invisible as it is. Being it like an 'invisible tattoo'
or 'invisible birthmark', forever to abide with you
until the day of your final breath.
Discrimination, Rejection, Isolation, Battles, Stigma,
Conflicts, Confrontations, Peer Reviews, Criticism,
Judgment with or without further criteria of full
evaluation (in other words - to quote an old adage;
"Making mountains out of molehills"), and so forth;
one surely must endure and press forth constantly.
A pie in one's face is insinuating enough. Having
been "Epilepsy free" because of a benign childhood
Epilepsy - such as "Rolandic" for example; which
one had outgrown, is an insult to a 25, 30, 50+
year old person. That which was of only temporary
is "stuck with them" and just as one who has Epilepsy,
they too, must endure frequently the same measures
beyond disbelief.
To make it worse, to hide such, would be costly to
them and yet on the flip-side of the coin to expose
such is the same as well. The U.S. Military has a
policy of "Don't ask, don't tell", sadly, that cannot
be applied towards those with Epilepsy.
Answer me now? Why is it perfectly permissionable
for someone who wears glasses - regardless of their
visual status and condition - to be hired without a
second thought? Or one who is Diabetic, can be
shrugged off and be eligible without loosing a train
of thought? Nary would a person with High BP (Blood
Pressure) and has a bad history of cardiac problems
can be whisked aboard to the orientation immediately
at once? Or how about a person with multiple chronic
health problems (anything but neurological) and even
in a wheelchair, can be hired right on the spot?
Indeed, stigma prevails much; Epilepsy needs to be
bought forth OUT OF THE SHADOWS - and in spite of
all the dire media attention manifested forth; but
ask yourself this question:
"Is anyone truly listening?"
onder:Moreover, it is true people "hear", but do they "listen"?
People "read" but do they comprehend and grasp the
reality of everything? Apparently it is not the case,
for it still is reflecting broadly all around - left and
right; just open your eyes and peer about - it is
still alive and well. Is everything that everyone is
doing in vain? The "Old Brainy" perceives not, but
rather that the general public as a whole, world-wide
is just very slow to compensate everything for mainly
for this purpose; it is beyond their realm of under-
standing. It is the lack of total understanding is
what keeps people from total acceptance - therein,
the "Stigma still lies within"...
All in all, it takes time; in addition, with much
perseverance and persuasion - if people would
all come together and push with such a mighty
force in unison ~ one body, as a whole, can shaken
the entire world to the realm of reality. One person
cannot do this nor can sporadic people scattered
abroad here and there. One must not have the
attitude of "I'm going to let the others handle it",
for we all must become involved - for "We, the
people of Epilepsy, have a voice. We can speak
and break down all the walls that holds us at
bay. We must stand up and fight, and let the
world know - We are living breathing human beings!
We can do many things that everyone else can
pretty much so, if not, even better or beyond!"
The world has the concept that "Epilepsy" is
"Mental Retardation" (yes, they still fall under that
old politically incorrect terminology) which brings
forth another stigma therein. Epilepsy has nothing
to do with one's intelligence, for there are brilliant
people that supersedes of those who are of normalcy,
just as there are people who super multi-talented.
Epilepsy is unique in many ways; in one unusual
way - to the fact that people with Epilepsy are higher
and more prone to be multi-talented more so beyond
those who are normal human beings. Such finding is
rather uncanny, but is that good or bad? For one to
have Epilepsy with such feat extraordinaire is
truly beyond human comprehension, if one dares to
trod venture into the soils of famous and nearly famous
people with Epilepsy or Epilepsies - and what they had
or have (living or deceased) done / doing. That itself
would truly, pardon the pun; blow one's mind!
Just 4 You
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It ticks me off that if you lose control for a few minutes, you can't drive for a long time. Even if it happened in your own bed, not harming anyone else. But if some ordinary guy gets caught driving Drunk and loses control, they only get a 24 hour suspension.
Endless
Even Keel
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The company I worked for kept any personal medical information in their medical department. They didn't decide what we could and couldn't do. They asked for a letter from my doctor stating what I could and couldn't do, and they followed that, and helped figure out accomodations.
That doesn't mean I didn't face descrimination. I believe I've lost my job over that. People who don't understand seizures mistake post-ictal or ictal behavior for performance issues (like forgetting things, temporary personality changes, or falling asleep at your desk). There are no accomodations for those things except co-worker's kindness, compassion, and humanity, and the willingness to be a little flexible. if you work with people who do not possess those traits, you are hosed.
That doesn't mean I didn't face descrimination. I believe I've lost my job over that. People who don't understand seizures mistake post-ictal or ictal behavior for performance issues (like forgetting things, temporary personality changes, or falling asleep at your desk). There are no accomodations for those things except co-worker's kindness, compassion, and humanity, and the willingness to be a little flexible. if you work with people who do not possess those traits, you are hosed.
RanMan
Too Much Experience with Epilepsy
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Would you consider this descrimination?
My employer of 30 years (Government of Canada)knows my health situation and thought I was trying to get out of doing certain tasks and insisted that I get tested by a neuro/psyc Doctor to see what I can/can't do.
After that I was FORCED to take early retirement for medical purposes.
Since I was a couple of months short of my 30 years, my pension was 15% less.
Randy
Just 4 You
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Employment
I'd really like to know how you got a job with the Government of Canada! I've been trying all my life to get a job, but I've been on Disability Income ever since I turned Legal Age and got labled "Unemployable" for Public Safety.
I have a letter from the BC Government explaining why I cannot work, stating "The Safety of Thousands is More Important than the Satisfactions of Just One."
I'd really like to know how you got a job with the Government of Canada! I've been trying all my life to get a job, but I've been on Disability Income ever since I turned Legal Age and got labled "Unemployable" for Public Safety.
I have a letter from the BC Government explaining why I cannot work, stating "The Safety of Thousands is More Important than the Satisfactions of Just One."
Rae1889
Veteran
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Just 4 U,
I would get yourself Re-Evaluated as that is not right. If they allow 12 year olds to babysit and 15 year olds to get a part time job, then there is NO reason why you cannot work. I often find disability silly. As there are several people that claim it and really in my opinion there arent many valid reasons to claim it. If Steven Hawkings can work, If Christopher Reeves stilled worked then there arent alot of things where someone cannot work. There is a place in my city that is specifically made to let people with intelectual disabilitys and physical disability work. I cant think of the name yet.
If you have any questions feel free to msg me.
I would get yourself Re-Evaluated as that is not right. If they allow 12 year olds to babysit and 15 year olds to get a part time job, then there is NO reason why you cannot work. I often find disability silly. As there are several people that claim it and really in my opinion there arent many valid reasons to claim it. If Steven Hawkings can work, If Christopher Reeves stilled worked then there arent alot of things where someone cannot work. There is a place in my city that is specifically made to let people with intelectual disabilitys and physical disability work. I cant think of the name yet.
If you have any questions feel free to msg me.
Just 4 You
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I've been a sort of Activist regarding Employment here in Victoria, fighting why people with disabilities are sent away to Handicapped Workshops, where they fill plastic bags with popsicle sticks to be sold in Craft Shops. The profits from the sales, go to keeping the place going, while the people working there get to keep coming back. That's their pay.
If you think Wheelchair Access has been one of the barriers to employment, then what about a Shopping Mall where all stores are accessible? But I dare you to go into any large shopping center and see if you can find just one store that has a person with an evident disability who actually works there!
I took a Job Training Program which cost me $500, paying $50 a month, sending me out to different companies for work experience. I got great marks, but when the company was asked if they would hire me, they said NO for liability reasons, but they'd gladly keep me as a Volunteer.
After the ten months was up, and no company was willing to hire me, the instructors suggested I take the course again, admitting I may not get a job, but it's better than doing nothing!
All I've ever done is work as a Volunteer. Every year, Community Events need Volunteers and I get involved with those otherwise I have to pay to get in. But there's no paycheck at the end. Just the pleasures of going, like in the Handicapped Workshops.
I guess that's all we're good for.
If you think Wheelchair Access has been one of the barriers to employment, then what about a Shopping Mall where all stores are accessible? But I dare you to go into any large shopping center and see if you can find just one store that has a person with an evident disability who actually works there!
I took a Job Training Program which cost me $500, paying $50 a month, sending me out to different companies for work experience. I got great marks, but when the company was asked if they would hire me, they said NO for liability reasons, but they'd gladly keep me as a Volunteer.
After the ten months was up, and no company was willing to hire me, the instructors suggested I take the course again, admitting I may not get a job, but it's better than doing nothing!
All I've ever done is work as a Volunteer. Every year, Community Events need Volunteers and I get involved with those otherwise I have to pay to get in. But there's no paycheck at the end. Just the pleasures of going, like in the Handicapped Workshops.
I guess that's all we're good for.
ColmanMac
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Deserved all that he got! Sheer stupidity - I surrendered my licence on diagnosis & no matter where I have to go with work/leisure I can always train/plane it - which ironically is much more effective - with friends in police I'd expect to be nicked & jailed if I ever displayed such crass stupidity as this eejit!
Col.
Col.
Just 4 You
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I try to look on the bright side.... while others may get into town quicker by driving, I'll be the first into the theatre while they keep driving around looking for a place to park!
Endless
Even Keel
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Just4you,
Is there a reason you have to tell them you have a disability before you are hired? In the US there is no such requirement, unless it would directly impact the job (like having E and you want to be a school bus driver)
If they don't know, they can't discriminate. Then tell them if you have to, once you are hired.
Is there a reason you have to tell them you have a disability before you are hired? In the US there is no such requirement, unless it would directly impact the job (like having E and you want to be a school bus driver)
If they don't know, they can't discriminate. Then tell them if you have to, once you are hired.
Rae1889
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I was thinking the same thing Endless, except that I can see from his side with no job ever in 40 years, I'm sure they would ask why its only been volunteer. and if he was to say that he would rather not say why, that just makes him look like a bigger liability than him having seizures.
It may be worth it to try to find an office job or something at first. Like a receptionist or order desk for a company. Desk jobs dont have alot of risk. Or maybe after having your work training down and thats it.
It may be worth it to try to find an office job or something at first. Like a receptionist or order desk for a company. Desk jobs dont have alot of risk. Or maybe after having your work training down and thats it.
Just 4 You
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Here in Canada, if you get the job and then they find out, the Employer can legally fire you for not being truthful or fully open about yourself, and thus may doubt any prior experience you put on your resume', or worse... may suspect you of having a criminal record but you didn't say anything because he didn't ask.