[Ketogenic] Keto or Paleo?

MMRocks

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Don't know how to do a poll yet, so please just write answer or even letter K or P if you have been on either the Ketogenic or Paleo diet and it helped you.

If you did both, please mention and tell which one worked best.

TIA
 

AlohaBird

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Started with paleo then moved to keto and yes, it has been very helpful. Been able to back off my meds dose by half while still maintaining full seizure control.

Paleo is just basically healthy eating. Cutting out the grains, soy, and all artificial crap (e.g.MSG)
Keto is a whole 'nuther level of commitment with a lot of counting grams of carbs, fat and protein involved.

The theory that Dr Symes (dogtorj.com) is working with is that keto is really not necessary, just going paleo will do it and he may be right.

p.s. there are various flavors of paleo one of which is Primal which is basically the trademark of Mark Sisson of the Mark's Daily Apple site. The thing about Primal which is what I was doing is that it allows dairy products. Dr Symes says that dairy contains high levels of glutamate. He approaches everyhting from a neurological perspective. He says that paleo diets work because they inadvertently cut out the very things he says are neurotoxic exitotoxins. The main things he says must go are gluten grains, corn, soy, and dairy plus getting rid of any and all fake sweeteners and insidiously hidden MSG. I think there is room for both paleo and Dr. Symes to be right. Eating an evolutionarily appropriate diet is healthy and it also happens to cut out the things that are toxic to brains with epilepsy.
 
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MMRocks

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Personally, I've been drawn to Paleo for a while. I've made some of the recipes, to see if I could eat that way (like it, able to cook it, etc) and that worked well.

I like the idea of giving up raw dairy (milk) but keeping small amounts of processed dairy. My daughter is lactose intolerant, so she drinks lactose-free milk, regular milk upsets her stomach horribly. However, she can eat any cheese, butter, ice cream, sour cream, sauces with zero problems. I think the processing dairy either via temperature or fermentation changes the structure, making it more digestable in humans. I could go whole hog dairy free though, I did it once before and it was doable.

Even though I'm drawn to the Paleo, all I hear for seizure control is Ketogenic, everywhere. Then I dug more and found Ketogenic is great for children. Not so much said about adults. I don't like the idea of measuring and counting and all that, I won't do it, so I can't see myself choosing that option. Unless I had to.

I really want to go full natural with a multi-approach to prevent seizing. Diet is just one aspect.

Thanks for your input, and your keywords. Now I can go research glutamate, exitotoxins, and Dr Symes and Mark Sisson.
 

AlohaBird

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I am currently reading a great book called Keto Clarity by Jimmy Moore and Dr. Westman. Very good for the nuts and bolts of how to do it. For a more in depth scientific treatise on keto, I would recommend the book The Art and Science of Low Carb Living by Phinney and Volek. Also love the book Primal Body Primal Mind by Nora Gedgaudas. She is a neurofeedback practitioner and has seen great improvements in her clients using the two, NF and keto, in tandem. Look for her website too. She did a talk at the Ancestral Health Symposium on keto that is google-able.

About dairy. Doctor Symes contention is that there is a big difference between cow milk products and goat or sheep milk products. It's only the cow milk that has the high glutamate content. So if you are going to keep some dairy, how about some goat milk and/or cheese? Fermentation takes out the lactose but the neurotoxic part is the glutamate in the casein protein, it's not about the lactose at all. Cow dairy protein is structured differently from goat.

Having listened to Mark Sisson for years I figured as long as I was not lactose intolerant, milk was fine for me. But that's about digestion, not about neurological health. I'm now about ready to set out on completely dairy free a la the G.A.R.D. protocol. We'll see if it makes a difference.
 

MMRocks

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About dairy. Doctor Symes contention is that there is a big difference between cow milk products and goat or sheep milk products. It's only the cow milk that has the high glutamate content. So if you are going to keep some dairy, how about some goat milk and/or cheese? Fermentation takes out the lactose but the neurotoxic part is the glutamate in the casein protein, it's not about the lactose at all. Cow dairy protein is structured differently from goat.
I didn't know any of that! Thank you so much for the knowledge. I have tasted liquid goat's milk and really liked it; tasted feta goat cheese and really really Didn't like it.

You know, I read about breastfeeding extensively once, and it talked about how breast milk contains the perfect balance of everything to build a perfect human. Then I realized milk, cow's milk, is cow breast milk, and therefore perfectly balanced to build a perfect cow. Then I look down at my very large udders (50DD) and go "that's how that happened". I'd rather look like a goat *smiley face*.

Current goal is to go 100% Paleo by April. Gives me time to research and compile recipes that suit my tastes.
 

AlohaBird

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Yes, goat milk is very similar in the structure of the proteins and the protein/fat ratio to human breast milk.

Feta is a little intense. I like it sprinkled over a salad. But there are also other kinds of goat cheeses. Goat brie is heavenly.

I know you are kidding about the 50DDs but one of the side effects of too much soy in the diet is girls developing to puberty way too early (like 8 year olds getting pregnant).

Personally I know I grew up with way too much soy in my diet and continued to eat it as an adult thinking I was doing the healthful thing. Then I got breast cancer. Started researching phyto-estrogens and cut out soy completely.

Dr. Symes is saying that soy is also high in glutamate so my breast cancer and my epilepsy may have a common root.
 

MMRocks

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This is very important information. Thank you for the sharing and know that I will use it in future research.
 

AlohaBird

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[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Well-Fed-Paleo-Recipes-People/dp/061557226X/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1422584366&sr=1-8&keywords=paleo+cookbook"]Well Fed: Paleo Recipes for People Who Love to Eat: Melissa Joulwan, David Humphreys, Kathleen Shannon: 9780615572260: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51DnKC1UJ9L.@@AMEPARAM@@51DnKC1UJ9L[/ame]

This is the companion cookbook to the paleo diet book called "It Starts With Food"

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/It-Starts-With-Food-Unexpected/dp/1628600543/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_z"]It Starts With Food: Discover the Whole30 and Change Your Life in Unexpected Ways: Dallas Hartwig, Melissa Hartwig: 9781628600544: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EPJT9DhaL.@@AMEPARAM@@51EPJT9DhaL[/ame]

I always though of these authors as being a bit on the "hard ass" side because they are very strict about the rules, saying, you are either doing this or you're not, make a commitment. Now with what I know about glutamate, I am coming to see their strictness as a good thing.

Well written books in any case.

Nom Nom Paleo is also a good cook book:
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Nom-Paleo-Food-Humans/dp/1449450334/ref=pd_sim_b_4?ie=UTF8&refRID=006JHHVTHVAHGEEX1SVH"]Nom Nom Paleo: Food for Humans: Michelle Tam, Henry Fong: 0884122391655: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51a8Uu9l0cL.@@AMEPARAM@@51a8Uu9l0cL[/ame]
 

deeds

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I have been on the MAD diet twice
It made my seizures more active and more often
 
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